[jillybean]

Playing 5 card majors, I love the Jacoby 2nt bid, showing a game forcing, 4 card raise for partner's 1 Major opening.

What is the equivalent in a 4 card Major System, in "Pure Acol" and other modified Acol or 4 cM systems?

[hrothgar]

jillybean, on 2021-June-08, 16:51, said:

Playing 5 card majors, I love the Jacoby 2nt bid, showing a game forcing, 4 card raise for partner's 1 Major opening.

What is the equivalent in a 4 card Major System, in "Pure Acol" and other modified Acol or 4 cM systems?

There are plenty of treatments out there

Most use either a 2NT response or in some cases 1♥ - 2♠

You might consider getting a copy of Major Suit Raises the Scanian Way

[steve2005]

Various meanings of 4♣/4♦ Swiss raises have been used in Acol.

[jillybean]

steve2005, on 2021-June-08, 19:50, said:

Various meanings of 4♣/4♦ Swiss raises have been used in Acol.

This?

Swiss
A bid of 4C or 4D after an opening of 1H or 1S is the "Swiss" convention. It is used when the hand is strong enough for a direct jump to game of the major, holds two or three aces but is insufficiently strong to make a forcing bid. The bids have the following meanings:

4C shows two aces, four card trump support and 13-15 points
4D shows three aces, four card trump support and 13-15 points
This is a useful bid, because given the holding of so many aces, it is otherwise unlikely that partner would consider a slam without this bid that tells them how many aces we hold at the same time as promising support of their suit.

[helene_t]

Traditional Acol books sometimes feature 3NT as a "pudding raise", i.e. a balanced GF hand. Unbalanced hands would splinter. Stronger hands may start with a SJS and show support in next round.

But my impression is that Jacoby 2NT is more popular. Bergen Raises, OTOH, are not common among 4cM players in my experience.

It may be a good idea to modify the follow-ups to the 2NT raise to clarify the number of trumps.

[Winstonm]

helene_t, on 2021-June-08, 20:25, said:

Traditional Acol books sometimes feature 3NT as a "pudding raise", i.e. a balanced GF hand. Unbalanced hands would splinter. Stronger hands may start with a SJS and show support in next round.

But my impression is that Jacoby 2NT is more popular. Bergen Raises, OTOH, are not common among 4cM players in my experience.

It may be a good idea to modify the follow-ups to the 2NT raise to clarify the number of trumps.

A lot of Bergen raise theory is based on 9-card fits - doesn't fit with 4cM

[jillybean]

helene_t, on 2021-June-08, 20:25, said:

Traditional Acol books sometimes feature 3NT as a "pudding raise", i.e. a balanced GF hand. Unbalanced hands would splinter. Stronger hands may start with a SJS and show support in next round.

But my impression is that Jacoby 2NT is more popular. Bergen Raises, OTOH, are not common among 4cM players in my experience.

It may be a good idea to modify the follow-ups to the 2NT raise to clarify the number of trumps.

This would be a 'Reverse Jacoby 2NT' where responder has the 5 card major in support for partner's 1M 4 card opening?
If we are using the follow ups to clarify an 8 or 9 card fit, we have lost the room to probe for slam.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2021-June-09, 13:56, said:

This would be a 'Reverse Jacoby 2NT' where responder has the 5 card major in support for partner's 1M 4 card opening?
If we are using the follow ups to clarify an 8 or 9 card fit, we have lost the room to probe for slam.

No, responder should do this with 4+, the probability that opener has 5+ is fairly high, depending on your opening
bid strategy.
Contrary to a 5 card system, where you may not want to do use the bid with only 3, due to the 5-3 fit, the 4-4 can
quite often treated like a 54.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

Thanks.

[paulg]

When I was younger Fruit Machine Swiss went through a period of popularity, probably due to its name and write ups in the popular magazines. There are pairs at my local club who still think they are playing this, if only they could remember it all.

This was in the days when everyone was looking for the perfect set of Swiss responses. A bit like Jacoby 2NT these days

[jillybean]

paulg, on 2021-June-09, 15:05, said:

When I was younger Fruit Machine Swiss went through a period of popularity, probably due to its name and write ups in the popular magazines. There are pairs at my local club who still think they are playing this, if only they could remember it all.

This was in the days when everyone was looking for the perfect set of Swiss responses. A bit like Jacoby 2NT these days

I had to check that your weren't joking. I might steal the name for when I'm playing against the pairs who respond to a query on their alerts as "Jacoby".


Fruit-Machine Swiss
A variation on the Swiss convention. After partner has opened one of a major suit, 4C and 4D both show game support for the major and two aces. 4C also promises an extra feature that opener can ask for by bidding 4D, where the responses are:
4 of the major shows the trump king
4NT shows a third ace
any other suit shows a singleton or void in that suit

[jillybean]

helene_t, on 2021-June-08, 20:25, said:

Traditional Acol books sometimes feature 3NT as a "pudding raise", i.e. a balanced GF hand. Unbalanced hands would splinter. Stronger hands may start with a SJS and show support in next round.

But my impression is that Jacoby 2NT is more popular. Bergen Raises, OTOH, are not common among 4cM players in my experience.

It may be a good idea to modify the follow-ups to the 2NT raise to clarify the number of trumps.

Winstonm, on 2021-June-08, 20:38, said:

A lot of Bergen raise theory is based on 9-card fits - doesn't fit with 4cM

Following on from my original question, what do 4cM players do with a 3 or 4 card limit raise?

[helene_t]

With a 3card limit raise, I think almost all 4cardM pairs first bid another suit. But you need to discuss with p if
1M-2c
2d-3M
is forcing. In Dutch Acol it is, but some English Acol players take it as a 3card limit raise.

[paulg]

jillybean, on 2021-June-12, 21:37, said:

Following on from my original question, what do 4cM players do with a 3 or 4 card limit raise?

1M-3M is traditionally a limit raise. There is little point having a 3-card limit raise of a four-card major, so you typically bid your longest suit.

[Cyberyeti]

paulg, on 2021-June-13, 00:56, said:

1M-3M is traditionally a limit raise. There is little point having a 3-card limit raise of a four-card major, so you typically bid your longest suit.

Many people actually play 2N as limit or better rather than GF so that 3M is preemptive, but yes you bid another suit with a 3 card limit raise

[jillybean]

paulg, on 2021-June-13, 00:56, said:

1M-3M is traditionally a limit raise. There is little point having a 3-card limit raise of a four-card major, so you typically bid your longest suit.

Yes, many seem to play 1M 3M as a limit raise but you obviously give up on the preemptive raise. c'est la vie

There has been some shift to "Acol" 5 card Spades, 4 card Heart openings, the Helgemon-Helness system perhaps. New players are complaining that they have been told they must play 4 card Majors again, it's confusing.

[Winstonm]

jillybean, on 2021-June-12, 21:37, said:

Following on from my original question, what do 4cM players do with a 3 or 4 card limit raise?

For the most part you don’t make a direct raise with 3 trumps.
The reason I mentioned Bergen is that the weaker 3-level bids are based on 9-card fits and LOTT. You wouldn’t make those weaker bids playing 4-card majors

[jillybean]

Winstonm, on 2021-June-13, 17:30, said:

For the most part you don’t make a direct raise with 3 trumps.
The reason I mentioned Bergen is that the weaker 3-level bids are based on 9-card fits and LOTT. You wouldn’t make those weaker bids playing 4-card majors

Yes I understand, my question was poorly phrased. I hear some treat the 1M opening as "likely 5 cards", I don't really understand how they play this. We still don't want to be pushing to the 3 level on a weak 4 card raise.

[fromageGB]

jillybean, on 2021-June-13, 20:21, said:

Yes I understand, my question was poorly phrased. I hear some treat the 1M opening as "likely 5 cards", I don't really understand how they play this. We still don't want to be pushing to the 3 level on a weak 4 card raise.

If it is 5 card in practice, you do want to push to 3 in competition, so it all depends on whether you want to let them in easily or preempt to the level you want to be at. Of course if they pass, 3M on a 12 opposite 7 will be going off sometimes. I play 5 card majors, and while I don't play Bergen, with 7/8 and no shortage I bid 3M-1 which amounts to the same thing, and I think it pays off.

Of course if you are not rigid about 12 hcp with a 5 card major, you may want to bolster that raise.

[Winstonm]

jillybean, on 2021-June-13, 20:21, said:

Yes I understand, my question was poorly phrased. I hear some treat the 1M opening as "likely 5 cards", I don't really understand how they play this. We still don't want to be pushing to the 3 level on a weak 4 card raise.

I can’t speak for others but from my experiences a true 4-card major devotee will open 1H holding xx, AJxx, KQxxx, Ax so the issue becomes how to take preference when responder is weak and 2-2 in opener’s suits.

The issue 4-card majors solved is always having as opener a rebid. More often than not a major opener holds 5 even playing 4-card majors. Bergen can be used as long as you realize the occasional 4-4 fit won’t be LOTT protected