[jillybean]

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[helene_t]

jillybean, on 2021-June-16, 19:24, said:

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Somehow the diagram doesn't show in my browser in the original post, I increased the size to 200|400.

Maybe it's just my browser ?

I think I bid 3NT, it may not make but if I have only 8 tricks I may also have only 8 tricks in hearts.

Edit: yes it's just Chrome, in IE it looks normal.

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2021-June-17, 21:11

[Winstonm]

I'm dancing with the gal I brung - 4H. Mainly because 3N tells partner I have more than I have.

Truthfully though, this is not a double I would have made. If I had to bid, I would overcall 1nt

[Dean_E]

Winstonm, on 2021-June-16, 21:05, said:

I'm dancing with the gal I brung - 4H. Mainly because 3N tells partner I have more than I have.

Doesn't raising hearts also show more than a minimum?
3NT doesnt necessarily show a hand to strong to overcall 1NT.
Can be a hand like this.

[nullve]

Winstonm, on 2021-June-16, 21:05, said:

I'm dancing with the gal I brung - 4H. Mainly because 3N tells partner I have more than I have.

So what?

[Cyberyeti]

I evaluate my ♠AJ10 as >5 so overcall 1N, now partner can evaluate better. The same hand with ♠AJ2 I have this problem and I think I bid 3N.

[LBengtsson]

nullve, on 2021-June-17, 01:17, said:

So what?

agree. 3nt shows desire to play 3nt. if partner now bids 4♥ then pass. if partner instead bids 4♣/4♦ then just bid 4♥. if south has extra values then he can bid 3♠ in reply to partner's 3♥ instead of 3nt.

double on first round is wrong bid for south as others have said. either bid 1nt (borderline) or pass and wait for partner to balance if possible

[Winstonm]

Dean_E, on 2021-June-16, 21:37, said:

Doesn't raising hearts also show more than a minimum?
3NT doesnt necessarily show a hand to strong to overcall 1NT.
Can be a hand like this.

As to 1: yes
As to 2: no, unless off-shape doubles are normal for you.

I have no strong opinion about this type double- just was never my style but I can be convinced I am wrong. But for consistency a double followed by a nt bid shows a bigger nt than an overcall.

[Winstonm]

nullve, on 2021-June-17, 01:17, said:

So what?

Nothing unless internal consistency matters to you. Practical result is ok. But do you really want partner to have future doubts about competing with a 4-card major suit after you double? There is more to life than this one hand. Being a disciplined and reliable bidder matters in the long run as far as I am concerned. Your opinion may differ.

[apollo1201]

For me, 3H just shows 8-10 with 4-5 cards.

AJT, AQ and K are probably good positionned news, and I clearly have more strength than I showed. But I have a lousy shape and a lousy fit. Not sure all that will be enough to convince me to bid 3NT or 4H even red at IMPs. At MPs I just pass.

The bidding probably went 1S pass pass (and often pass in last seat, sometimes X) everywhere else. Xing with 4333 shape, values in opps suit and just 3 in the other major will clearly not be a popular choice with 14 (admittedly good) HCPs.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2021-June-16, 19:24, said:

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Double here was not my first or even second choice.
Now it seems I made it, I certainly can't bid NT, pass looks better than 4♥.

[johnu]

helene_t, on 2021-June-16, 20:50, said:

Somehow the diagram doesn't show in my browser in the original post, I increased the size to 200|400.

Maybe it's just my browser ?

I think I bid 3NT, it may not make but if I have only 8 tricks I may also have only 8 tricks in hearts.

It's just your browser unless OP went back and fixed something in the hand display.

Yes, there is no guarantee that partner has 5 hearts. If they only have 4 hearts, your xxx support is pretty minimal and NT may play much better than hearts, with no guarantees.

[mikeh]

LBengtsson, on 2021-June-17, 04:47, said:

agree. 3nt shows desire to play 3nt. if partner now bids 4♥ then pass. if partner instead bids 4♣/4♦ then just bid 4♥. if south has extra values then he can bid 3♠ in reply to partner's 3♥ instead of 3nt.

double on first round is wrong bid for south as others have said. either bid 1nt (borderline) or pass and wait for partner to balance if possible

Edited to remove rudeness
How does 3S over 3H show a notrump hand too strong to overcall1N?

3S is a slam try in hearts, not an attempt to get to 3N

I do agree that the double of 2S is borderline. I’d be far happier with my round suits reversed. xxx in hearts, the suit where we are most likely to hold 4 cards, and the suit in which partner will move aggressively to game, is horrible

For those who think a 1N overcall is a good idea, may I ask how you’d expect to score if LHO says double?

Despite the trends I’ve seen in recent years, it’s no mandatory to bid every time one has an opening hand.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2021-June-17, 23:40, said:

Edited to remove rudeness
How does 3S over 3H show a notrump hand too strong to overcall1N?

3S is a slam try in hearts, not an attempt to get to 3N

I do agree that the double of 2S is borderline. I’d be far happier with my round suits reversed. xxx in hearts, the suit where we are most likely to hold 4 cards, and the suit in which partner will move aggressively to game, is horrible

For those who think a 1N overcall is a good idea, may I ask how you’d expect to score if LHO says double?

Despite the trends I’ve seen in recent years, it’s no mandatory to bid every time one has an opening hand.

If you double, how do you expect to score if LHO redoubles ? I just evaluate this as 15 with the opening bid on my right

[gwnn]

I hate suggesting gadgets, but this one is something I learned recently and I love how simple it is and how often it comes up. This is part of "my" takeout double structure (just patched together from 2-3 different ideas) explained on my youtube channel. This specific idea was proposed by Mats Nilsland AFAIK.
https://www.youtube....h?v=t3CwlaeOXWI

1♠-x-p-2♠ is either some awkward minor-oriented hand but much more often just 10+ with 4 hearts. Over this:

1♠-x-p-2♠
p-?
the most common two responses are:
2NT = four hearts, forcing 1 round.
3m = denies four hearts, minimumish, NF.
Responder now instantly knows whether we have a heart fit or we need to look for a minor suit fit, in which case we can fish for those cheaply. Every now and then we miss some sort of 16+10 minor suit game (doubler erred on the side of caution), but at least we find a solid fit most of the time.

Other bids show big hands:
3♥ = double + heart hand, very strong, 5+ cards. (I suppose if you double a lot with 5 hearts you can also have this as just showing that hand...)
3♠/NT = 16+ ish, not 4 hearts, without/with a stopper

This means that
1♠-x-p-3♥ unambiguously shows a 5-card heart suit and we don't need to play some weird moysian on the 3-level for no reason (well sometimes we fail to find a 4-4/5-4 fit in minors as well... but at least we gave us a fighting chance). Experts usually say "you just gotta learn how to handle 4-3 contracts csaba, stop complaining" but I've seen experts also go down when trumps are 4-2 idk.

You can repurpose this for the following situations too:

1♠-x-2♠-3♥ = 5 hearts
1♠-x-2♠-x = responsive but often with 4 hearts
1♠-x-2♠-x
p-2NT = "four hearts 2NT"

And
1♠-p-p-x
2♠-3♥ = 5 hearts

1♠-p-p-x
2♠-x = responsive but often with 4 hearts

1♠-p-p-x
2♠-x-p-2NT = "four hearts 2NT"

The point (in my view) is that doubler having a stopper is kind of rare and advancer really needing the answer to a stop ask is also kind of rare. Much more common is the question "does my partner have three/four/five hearts?" as responder.

PS no I am not coming back to BBF, I am just plugging my youtube channel basically.

[jmcilkley]

jillybean, on 2021-June-16, 19:24, said:

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I wouldn't double with that had - see what a quandry it leads you to? Partner is showing 9+ points but not necessarily long hearts, may only be 4. If you pass initially and can rely on partner to be protective in the 4th seat then you won't miss a game anyway.

[Douglas43]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-June-18, 02:51, said:

If you double, how do you expect to score if LHO redoubles ? I just evaluate this as 15 with the opening bid on my right

I agree. 1NT is risky yes, but would get plenty of votes with AQx in spades instead of AJ10, and AJ10 is just as good as AQx in this context. Just need to be ready to apologise on the days it gets murdered.