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Responding to neg dbl playing 5-card majors weak nt

Poll: Responding to neg dbl playing 5-card majors weak nt (4 member(s) have cast votes)

2NT is:

  1. any 15-16 bal, NF (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. any 15-16 bal w/o 4 spades, NF (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. any 15-16 bal with a heart stopper, NF (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. 15-16 bal, heart stopper, no 4 sp, NF (3 votes [75.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  5. 15+ bal forcing (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. lebensohl (1 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  7. scrambling (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. other (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. I don't understand this poll (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-April-09, 16:52

Long time ago, Fred posted an example of an auction that is difficult if you play weak NT:

1m-(2)-x-(pass)
2NT

Since responder has to do something with a random 9-count, the double is not about spades. Opener has to clarify their shape and strength, so 2NT just shows a balanced 15-16 count. It may or may not have spades.

If you play 4-card majors it is not a problem - opener won't have four spades in a balanced hand so 2 shows a minimum with spades and longer clubs, while 2NT would deny spades.

How do you play this 2NT rebid if you play weak NT and 5-card majors?
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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2022-April-09, 20:27

I have tried to work out the logic behind this, and I guess that if I have to play a 4M system with weak NT, I open the 4M instead of a short minor suit with a 15-16 count hand. So, I guess also logically, with a 5M system that cannot happen, and opener can have 5(6)m4M hand or a balanced one? So bidding 2 here could be balanced hand (15-16) with no stop and 4, or 5(6)m4 with a minimum hand? Is that why this sequence is difficult?

And bidding 2NT shows...I would think 15-16 balanced and a stop but not 4? That seems sensible, but what if you have 15-16 without stop and < 4 hand. Eureka! I understand why now you have posted this on the forum helene_t. I will let other people who play 5m/weak NT to comment as that is not what I play.
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-April-10, 03:34

Yes 3343 without a heart stopper is also a problem if dbl doesn't promise four spades so 2sp could be a 3-3 fit.

But the issue is primarily about balanced hands with a 4card spades.
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#4 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2022-April-10, 10:19

1) The double "promises" 4 spades.

2) Opener will bid 2S with a balanced 15-16 count with only 3 spades and no heart stopper.

3) Responder has room to clarify after opener's 2S bid. Responder never passes with a 9 count and a heart stopper. The 2S bid by opener is not more wide ranging than in 1m-1S-2S.

4) I'm a K-Ser. Acolites may have different reactions.
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#5 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-April-10, 12:28

I thought this is a Good/Bad 2NT situation. Also it matters a great deal to me which minor was opened, but I guess that depends on system.

If you play weak NT the 8-9 HCP responders have the extra option of raising to 3m with 4-card support, so the double is more descriptive.
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#6 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-April-10, 14:59

View PostDavidKok, on 2022-April-10, 12:28, said:

I thought this is a Good/Bad 2NT situation.

I wonder - if 2NT is g/b, we will not be able to stop in 2NT when we have 15+8 points or so. Would you say that the negative double is GF opposite a balanced 15-count?
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#7 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2022-April-10, 16:08

How about

1-(2)-X = GF opposite MAX, takeout

and

1-(2)-X; ?:

P = allowed (based on LoTT)
2N = Good/Bad
...3 = P/C
......P/3/ = badMIN*, NAT
......3 = MAX, 4 H, S stopper
......3N = MAX, < 4 H, S stopper
......(...)
...(...)
3// = goodMIN, NAT
3 = MAX, 4 H, no S stopper
3N = MAX, < 4 H, no S stopper
(...)

where

badMIN = "11-13" (unBAL)
goodMIN = "14-16" unBAL or 15-17 BAL
MAX = "17+" unBAL or 18-19 BAL

+ similar structures after

1-(2)

and

1-(2M)

?

* I need to invent the Badminton convention, obviously
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#8 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-April-10, 16:52

View Posthelene_t, on 2022-April-10, 14:59, said:

I wonder - if 2NT is g/b, we will not be able to stop in 2NT when we have 15+8 points or so. Would you say that the negative double is GF opposite a balanced 15-count?
I don't play a weak NT, so I really don't know. I've always been told that it's OK to raise to 3m with, say, 8-9 points, support or tolerance and no descriptive bid. Either partner is unbalanced and you'll hit a nice fit, or partner has got a strong notrump and can take a view (pass on power/3NT to make/3 stopper ask, for example). I think it's not even crazy to raise on 3-card support - as long as you don't look silly opposite the weak unbalanced option, you can make a lot of moves. Once you take those hands out the double should show all of:
  • Shortness in their suit.
  • Shortness in partner's minor suit.
  • No 5c (over 2)
  • No GF values
On 1-(2)-?, double basically ends up showing hands like 4=2=5=2, 4=2=4=3 and maybe the occasional 3=2=4=4/3=2=5=3/4=3=4=2/3=3=4=3 or so with 8-11 points (I'd probably bid 3 with 3 spades and 3 clubs here, but maybe there's merit in splitting the 8-11 range? I haven't given this much thought). I think with double so narrowly defined opener can consider passing 2X over bidding 2NT natural - the classical argument for not using 2NT to play in competition. And one day it will cost, but the rest of the time you have smoother auctions on the 3-level for it. Arguably this is more important if partner opened 1, or if they overcalled 2.

That being said, preempts work. Typically on auctions like this something has to give. I usually sacrifice 2NT first, and then ask if anything else has to go as well.
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#9 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2022-April-11, 01:33

Most strong Acol players that I know open a four-card minor rather than a four-card major with balanced hands, so this is not just a problem for five-card majors players.

However none of them think it is a problem. They just bid 2 with four spades. It is analogous to 1m-1-2 in a non-competitive auction. You either have a strong no trump or an unbalanced hand with spades and a minor.
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