[AL78]

This is the sort of hand which seems to cause problems for beginners/improvers, holding a big hand when partner has opened and not knowing how to progress the auction because they have a very limited grasp of forcing and non-forcing situations:

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MPs playing Acol weak NT.

My improver partner bid 3♦ which in Acol is invitational. I, holding a 4144 12 count passed and we missed one of the three available small slams. We had a discussion afterwards on how to progress with this hand and I explained the fundamental requirement to keep the auction alive with forcing bids. What do you think is the best way to proceed with the West hand within the limitations of the system? We do FSF as well as cue bidding and RCKB as slam tools.

[DavidKok]

2♣, fourth suit game forcing.

[AL78]

DavidKok, on 2023-February-03, 04:14, said:

2♣, fourth suit game forcing.

Thanks, the only forcing bids that came to mind were FSF or a jump to 4♦ showing slam interest but I hate jumping around with big hands like this.

[TMorris]

You need much more information about partner's hand so the lower you can keep the bidding the better. Hence FSF is best.

[Frank_lol_]

As a beginner/improver (whats the difference), I'll bid 2C 4SF (or 2D because I play xyz)
If the opener show balanced 12-14 somehow, I just bid 4NT -- has to be quantitative -- because theres really nothing else to bid. Maybe I should show the diamond fit? But whats the point, opener has shown 4=2=4=3/4=2=5=2 already (because he has a balanced hand), and 6D isnt really gonna do that much better than 6NT imo.
If the opener shows a unbalanced hand or 3 card heart support, I show my diamond support.

[AL78]

Frank_lol_, on 2023-February-03, 08:20, said:

As a beginner/improver (whats the difference), I'll bid 2C 4SF (or 2D because I play xyz)
If the opener show balanced 12-14 somehow, I just bid 4NT -- has to be quantitative -- because theres really nothing else to bid. Maybe I should show the diamond fit? But whats the point, opener has shown 4=2=4=3/4=2=5=2 already (because he has a balanced hand), and 6D isnt really gonna do that much better than 6NT imo.
If the opener shows a unbalanced hand or 3 card heart support, I show my diamond support.

If you bid 4SF I will bid 3♣ which should show a three suited hand, 4144 or 4054.

[DavidKok]

The bidding plan is 2♣ (GF), 3♦ next to set trumps, and then we're off to the races. After partner shows a 3-suiter (4144 or 4054) we should be slightly cautious since our slow heart values aren't great, but we've got excellent support for all three other suits so I still like my odds. Plus, there's a bit of room between 3♦ and 6♦ to apply the brakes if necessary.

[AL78]

FYI the full deal is here:

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Three of the other six pairs found 6NT which makes on a finesse.

[Cyberyeti]

This seems bizarre, partner opens a suit in which you have 4 cards, and at most tables, it never gets to blackwood to find you're off 2 keycards.

[Frank_lol_]

AL78, on 2023-February-03, 08:28, said:

If you bid 4SF I will bid 3♣ which should show a three suited hand, 4144 or 4054.

3D to set trump and cuebid all the way to 6/7D? I don't think rkc is the best idea here, opposing a possible void and also need to look for ♠Q.
(I havent seen the whole hand yet)

Edit: oh god, I have no idea how to cuebid correctly.
xxx - 1D
1H - 1S
2C/2D(4fs or xyz) - 3C
3D - ?
does 3S by east start cuebidding and deny heart void/singleton A?
if so, than
... - 3S
4C -4D
then what? does West cuebid his King opposite a singleton? i guess not, so
4S - 5C
5D - Pass
Should east bid 6D instead of pass if he had the Trump King?

[akwoo]

There is no way I would start cuebidding over FSF followed by 3D as East. I'm bidding 3N to get out as soon as possible.

With that good a hand, partner will override the signoff. This is the one hand where I'd be very happy to be playing minorwood because we get out in 4N rather than 5D. If not, it goes 4C - 4S (you've already shown a heart singleton; no need to cue it again, and that should show a void) - 4N and you end up in 5D when you realize you're off 2 key cards.

[Frank_lol_]

akwoo, on 2023-February-03, 16:04, said:

There is no way I would start cuebidding over FSF followed by 3D as East. I'm bidding 3N to get out as soon as possible.

With that good a hand, partner will override the signoff. This is the one hand where I'd be very happy to be playing minorwood because we get out in 4N rather than 5D. If not, it goes 4C - 4S (you've already shown a heart singleton; no need to cue it again, and that should show a void) - 4N and you end up in 5D when you realize you're off 2 key cards.

Oh, thats my bad. I forgot about signing off in 3NT is an option.

[thepossum]

I tend not to waste time and would bid have 4NT and end in 6D

Given we are going the wrong way round I think it would have to have been FSF or a jump in Diamonds second time round and see what happens then

Note I just tested 3D and it was passed

See what happens if you don't take the initiative straight away

How about risking a jump in hearts on round 1 with only 4

Maybe it looks as if I would/could have struggled with that one but on a good day I would just have bid a slam

[DavidKok]

thepossum, on 2023-February-03, 22:07, said:

I tend not to waste time and would bid have 4NT and end in 6D

You'd end in 4NT

[AL78]

DavidKok, on 2023-February-04, 02:40, said:

You'd end in 4NT

Not necessarily. With an inexperienced partner I would take that as RCKB agreeing spades. I appreciate that is not the expert view and it is best to set the trump suit via a forcing method first.

[AL78]

thepossum, on 2023-February-03, 22:07, said:

How about risking a jump in hearts on round 1 with only 4

I don't like misdescribing length in a major unless it is unavoidable (e.g. some 4441 hands). There is a risk if I hold honor doubleton or three of them that you will never keep me out of the major at a high level on a poor fit.

[DavidKok]

AL78, on 2023-February-04, 02:44, said:

Not necessarily. With an inexperienced partner I would take that as RCKB agreeing spades. I appreciate that is not the expert view and it is best to set the trump suit via a forcing method first.

I think thepossum meant over 1♦ directly, where 4NT should not exist but is quantitative if it does exist, probably with exactly 3=3=3=4. I wouldn't fancy 6♣ over that as East, our hand is a lousy minimum in context.

[thepossum]

It depends if your partner plays it as Blackwood or not.

But let's all gang up on my posts again

But we all know how people behave on a forum with a culture of bullying

I am getting close to leaving the whole site

Yes I meant over 1D

On a good day I get a slam 🙂

Maybe 6 diamonds. Why waste time 🙂

I did say I wasn't sure how to proceed

[nullve]

DavidKok, on 2023-February-03, 04:14, said:

2♣, fourth suit game forcing.

FSF is GF in Acol nowadays?

[AL78]

DavidKok, on 2023-February-04, 03:11, said:

I think thepossum meant over 1♦ directly, where 4NT should not exist but is quantitative if it does exist, probably with exactly 3=3=3=4. I wouldn't fancy 6♣ over that as East, our hand is a lousy minimum in context.

Oh, in that case the same reasoning applies, I would almost certainly take that as RKCB agreeing diamonds. I don't dispute it should be quantitative but in the circles I play, most players will interpret 4NT as Blackwood in all but the most fundamental situations.