[jillybean]

Starting a new thread here regarding the auction 1♥:2♠ SJS or Drop Dead

 jillybean, on 2023-February-06, 00:48, said:

I do like the SJS and so playing 1♥:1NT 2x:2♠ as drop dead, we don't lose anything do we?

 DavidKok, on 2023-February-06, 04:57, said:

As long as partner is kind enough not to jump past 2♠, and the opponents don't bid 3m while you hide your decent 6-card suit on the first round.

For what it's worth it is somewhat controversial to even include a four card spade suit in 1♥-1NT. I think including a weak hand with long spades is not a good idea at all.

1♥ (P) 1NT* (3m)
1♥ (P) 2♠ (drop dead) (3m) - I think it is more attractive for opps to come in at the 3 level after a weak, limited 2♠ bid.

As for partner, she knows my hand is limited by the 1nt response, at most I have an invitational raise in her Major. She won't jump past 2♠ without good reason.

[smerriman]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-06, 00:48, said:

However, I do like the SJS and so playing 1♥:1NT 2x:2♠ as drop dead, we don't lose anything do we?

This sequence is more commonly played as the 'impossible spade', a good raise of the minor, which is pretty useful when it comes up. But the other reasons DavidKok mentioned are pretty important too, since you'll be in trouble when opener has a normal jump shift response.

I really dislike weak jump shifts.

[jillybean]

 smerriman, on 2023-February-06, 15:06, said:

This sequence is more commonly played as the 'impossible spade', a good raise of the minor, which is pretty useful when it comes up. But the other reasons DavidKok mentioned are pretty important too, since you'll be in trouble when opener has a normal jump shift response.

I really dislike weak jump shifts.

For the average player, is Impossible 2♠ a good option, how often does it come up? What would this sequence be?
1♥:1NT
2♣:3♣

[Stephen Tu]

I'd prefer SJS to an ultra-weak "American" style wjs, where 2s is ~0-4/5. It just doesn't come up often enough IMO and the opps already bid something. "European" wjs, somewhat stronger, ~5-8 or so, and less "drop dead" as opener will more often be able to bid game/try for game, IMO is more useful. These are hands that would respond 1s then rebid 2s playing "std" without it available. They come up more often and block the opps from getting their minor in at 2 level. And they allow you to do more interesting things with say 1h-1s-2d-2s!, you can play this as ART GF (giving much more room than having to bid 3c!), or you can just have it be natural INV and stay lower on your invites with long spades if opener doesn't accept, which can work well on misfits or when everything lies poorly.

[Stephen Tu]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-06, 15:27, said:

For the average player, is Impossible 2♠ a good option, how often does it come up? What would this sequence be?
1♥:1NT
2♣:3♣

Impossible spade comes up a lot, it allows you to distinguish between strong invites (near opening hand) and weaker courtesy raises (8-9/bad 10 catering to wide range opener's stronger hands not quite strong enough to JS). Your sequence here would be the courtesy raise.

[mikeh]

Jb: were you thinking that 1H 1N 2H 2S was weak with spades?

That’s unwise. Partner won’t always cooperate over 1N. Meanwhile, if 3rd seat overcalls, the bidding may be back to you at the 3-level without your partner having an6 clue that you have spades.

I’ve seen some non-experts play 1H 2S as a weak jumpshift. I don’t know any experts who do it, though I wouldn’t be astounded if it turned out that a handful do.

Imo, it’s not a good idea for several reasons.

One is that suit rank counts. After say 1D, it makes some sense to play 2S as weak in order to shut out an easy heart bid by the opps. But when your side has both majors, it isn’t quite as important. Btw, I have, in the distant past, played weak jumpshifts. These days I play a lot of different stuff and find Wes’s not to be very useful compared to other possible meanings.

A second is that there are good alternate usages for 2S. In my partnerships we use it as a forcing raise of hearts…sort of like jacoby, with the benefit that we have a little extra room. Plus, and this can be very useful, we get to bid 1H 2N as a balanced game force, usually 3=2=4=4.

Others use it as a strong jumpshift and there are hands on which that makes the bidding easier than after, say, 1H 1S 2H…where no spade rebid is forcing, so one needs to distort one’s shape in order to force.

I’m sure there are other uses.

As for 1H 1N 2H, my view is that 2S can be put to several good uses (choose one)

1H 1N 2H 3m is usually played as ‘to play’. This is problematic when responder has, say, a good suit and about 10 hcp. So one can use 2S as forcing 2N over which responder bids his minor to show that hand (or reverse it with 2S relaying to show the weak hand)

If you play 1M 3m as invitational, you don’t need this but many play 3m as a raise of hearts, whether Bergen or other.

An alternative use is 1H 1N 2H 2S as saying ‘I’m at least 5-5 minors and have a stiff or void in hearts. Please choose a minor. This is low frequency and sometimes 3m plays worse than 2H, but it’s an option….probably best played as invitational values…if so, opener can invite or bid game with a good hand in context and is warned away from 3N absent extras and spades stopped

LHO, imo, using 1H 1N 2H 2S as weak and natural is a solution in search of a problem. Why not 1H 1S 2H pass or 2S?

Finally, if you’re responding 1N on 6 spades and a weak hand you lose a very useful, if low frequency, use. Opener is more likely to bid 2m than 2H.

If he bids 2C, there are gadgets for responder to differentiate the wide range of hands he can hold, but these generally don’t apply or don’t work as well after 2D. In any even5, it’s long been standard tyat 2S by responder shows a good 3m bid. My favourite variation is that it shows a good minor raise and Qx or better (not longer, just stronger) hearts

This can be very helpful. Firstly, if opener is looking at AKJxx in hearts, he can count five tricks for notrump. Secondl6, if his hand is unsuited for notrump, maybe the 5-2 heart game comes homevwh3n the 11 trick minor doesn’t fetch.

[DavidKok]

In my opinion the 'impossible spade' is a so-so gadget, and you can easily do without. John Montgomery suggests including balanced 10-11 HCP hands with exactly 4 spades in 1♥-1NT instead and reserving the 2♠ rebid for those, dedicates a full page to explaining why this is much superior to the impossible spade, recommends playing it also outside strong club structures and even calls it "This is one of the most important advances in bidding theory to be presented in Revision, one that is such a great improvement on what existed previously that I am amazed no one thought of it before now." (page 36 of the major opening structure of Revision). Along the way he presents a strong case that the impossible spade is mostly superfluous - you already have 2NT and 3m for constructive hands, and 2M for hands that want to keep the ball rolling. The impossible spade is also infrequent, and has no analogue over a 1♠ opening. Modern tools like Gazzilli (and perhaps also Bart or Lisa?) also reduce or even eliminate the need for this convention.

If I have a weak hand with long spades I would much prefer 1♥-(P)-2♠ (weak)-(3m) to 1♥-(P)-1NT*-(3m). In the former case you have given an accurate picture of your hand. Partner will have a reasonable idea of the degree of fit in both hearts and spades, and will likely get the competitive decisions over 3m right (i.e. raise spades with 3-card support, even if the hand is not very strong). On the second auction opener has no idea and will often be forced to pass, putting great pressure on responder. Do you hide your long spades or do you unilaterally commit to the 3-level, possibly even bypassing 3♥?

That by itself is not a sufficient argument for weak or strong jump shifts, and I'd pick the one you are most comfortable with. I would actually suggest intermediate. Weak jump shifts are not that common, do OK by starting with 1♠ and don't win a lot when they do come up. Strong jump shifts might be interesting, I'm not familiar enough with the frequencies and followups to judge. One consequence of playing this jump as anything but weak is that you should probably pass or bid 1♠ with the weak jump shifts. Folding them into other bids is too much of a distortion, and will come back to bite you on dozens of followup sequences.

[nullve]

Convention cards for some pairs playing 1♥-2♠ as a WJS in the 2022 Bermuda Bowl:

Hans-Hung (Australia)
Lee-Wai (China Hong Kong)
Sze-Chiu (China Hong Kong)
Levin-Roll (Israel)
Bakke-Brogeland (Norway)
Hult-Bertheau (Sweden)
Wrang-Nyström (Sweden)
Gawrys-Kluklowski (Switzerland)
Piedra-Zimmermann (Switzerland)
Levin-Weinstein (USA1)

[mw64ahw]

Neither for me
1♥ - 1NT 5+♠
2X - 2♠ WJS

1♥ - 1♠
1NT/2X - 2♠ SJS
leaving
1♥ - 2♠ to be 4+♥ LR+ and yes ops. can X, but it's rare

[mikeh]

 nullve, on 2023-February-06, 16:46, said:

Convention cards for some pairs playing 1♥-2♠ as a WJS in the 2022 Bermuda Bowl:

Hans-Hung (Australia)
Lee-Wai (China Hong Kong)
Sze-Chiu (China Hong Kong)
Levin-Roll (Israel)
Bakke-Brogeland (Norway)
Hult-Bertheau (Sweden)
Wrang-Nyström (Sweden)
Gawrys-Kluklowski (Switzerland)
Piedra-Zimmermann (Switzerland)
Levin-Weinstein (USA1)

Levi Weinstein don’t play 2S as WJS. It’s 6-10, so it’s like a weak 2S opening, definitely stronger than what most would consider a WJS

Those who put ranges were anywhere from 0-9 or 4-8.

So 8 pairs play WJS. It’s not surprising that I was unaware of that, since none of them are from NA and most of my experience has been in NA and reading NA bridge publications That’s a little parochial of me, I admit

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2023-February-06, 15:51, said:

Jb: were you thinking that 1H 1N 2H 2S was weak with spades

No, I was thinking 1♥ 1N 2m 2♠

1H 1N 2H I'm happy to pass partners 2♥ in these auctions, or raise if I had a 3 card limit raise of course.

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-06, 19:46, said:

No, I was thinking 1♥ 1N 2m 2♠

1H 1N 2H I'm happy to pass partners 2♥ in these auctions, or raise if I had a 3 card limit raise of course.

My point was that I read you as suggesting that you’d respond 1N to 1H with 6 spades and a weak hand. I strongly suggest you don’t. You have spades? Bid 1S. Or, if you want to do a WJS, bid 2S over 1H

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2023-February-06, 21:08, said:

My point was that I read you as suggesting that you’d respond 1N to 1H with 6 spades and a weak hand. I strongly suggest you don’t. You have spades? Bid 1S. Or, if you want to do a WJS, bid 2S over 1H

What is your minimum hand, with 6 spades to respond 1S over 1x?

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-06, 21:37, said:

What is your minimum hand, with 6 spades to respond 1S over 1x?

I hate to say it, but the answer is ‘it depends’

In one partnership, we open 1C on all balanced hands out of range for notrump. So 2C is often 2.

Deal me Jxxxxx xxx xxxx x and I’d never pass 1C

One of the benefits of a complicated transfer method is that partner won’t hang me very often (he will hand me once in a while)

1C 1H shows spades. If he has a 2N rebid, he bids 1N! Shows 17-19 with 2-3 spades and I transfer to 2S and pass

If he has 4 spades, I’m happy no matter what he does, but our strong (highly invitational or better) raise is 2N, over which I transfer. He bids 3S unless he has a truly huge hand.in either case, I’m content

If he reverses, I pass…yes, I pass a forcing bid!

If I held 4 clubs, I’d want a decent 4 count with a reasonable 5 card suit or a good 5 count with a 4 card suit.

Over 1D, I’m less inclined to stretch because partner usually has 5 diamonds unless some 4441 with 4, so the risk of a really, really bad trump situation is reduced and we don’t have the protection that our 1C structure offers on strong hands.

Over 1H, I’m even less inclined to stretch since he promises 5+.

I’d pass Jxxxx x Qxxx xxx over either 1H or 1D. I’d bid with KJxxxx x xxx xxx over either.

Hope that helps, although I may just have added to your confusion😀

[jillybean]

It's helpful, it would also be easier if I was playing transfers over 1♣

[DavidKok]

For what it's worth I think (even) K9xxxx xx xx xxx is a minimum response to 1♣. Without transfers you will frequently get too high. Tough luck, bid it anyway.

[jillybean]

more opportunities to bid