[jillybean]

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I assume you would X, now what?

(edit)Bad, not sure what I was thinking, probably looking at both hands

[smerriman]

Was leb available (i.e. is 3♦ showing values)? If so, I think I'd just go straight to keycard.

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2025-May-14, 19:28, said:

Was leb available (i.e. is 3♦ showing values)? If so, I think I'd just go straight to keycard.

No Leb here

[mikeh]

I would never double. Wtf are you planning to do over any spade bid by partner. And that could be 4S, even though we have a lot of hcp…maybe he has long spades, say 6=3=2=2.

As for what I’d do, probably 4N, over 2H

Over his 3D, without lebensohl, I’d bid 3H to establish a force then choose my next call depending on what happens

[jillybean]

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[DavidKok]

4♥ - 5-5 in the minors, stronger than 4NT. The cheaper bid of the two shows the stronger hand to facilitate slam exploration.

P.S.: I am aware of the absurdity of using my own detailed competitive agreements on an auction where the original pair hasn't discussed Lebensohl. Nevertheless I think it's interesting to discuss how one could handle these hands.

[shyams]

DavidKok, on 2025-May-15, 00:24, said:

4♥ - 5-5 in the minors, stronger than 4NT. The cheaper bid of the two shows the stronger hand to facilitate slam exploration.

This is interesting, thank you.

Do you also use 4minor for ♠+minor two suiters? And (if yes), do you play it as min 5-5 or do you use it with (e.g.) 4minor+5♠?

[DavidKok]

I play 4m here as 5m+5♠. It is forcing to game and unlimited, but can be bid on shape and show as little as 14 HCP in the right hand. Any hand that feels uncomfortable forcing to 'just' 3♠ with the appropriate shape should make this descriptive bid, in my opinion.
That does mean that partner opposite should not get too excited with, say, a working ace + king. And if I happened to hold a very strong hand we likely will miss slam here. I find that the games are much more frequent though, as are the tough competitive decisions if we go low first time and LHO raises.

It's somewhat popular here to play 3♥ as mini-Michaels - 5♠+5m, weaker than 4m, forcing only to any playable strain.

[mw64ahw]

As per DK 4♥ for me

I wonder what has most utility for the 3♥ bid?

• a traditional stopper ask for 3N with a strong suit
• mini-Michaels
• both minors GI

[Huibertus]

Not a double for me. I'd bid 4NT if you have no other options to show 2 suiters in the minors. Even without agreemenst 4NT should be understood.

Now that you have double and you don't play Lebensohl you have to make sure you get a chance at RKCB. So the one thing you can NOT do is bid 4♥ Partner won't be able to bid any cue, so bids 5♦ and there no longer is the possibility to bid 4NT. Given you double with this minor 2 suiter I guess you also double with a ♠♣ two suiter, so 4♣ is going to be misunderstood. So, 4NT it'll be. If he shows a keycard, will also ask for the Q, potentially going to bid 7♦. If he shows 0 keycard, going to assume he has the Q or partner has a 5 card and South a stiff Q, and bid 6.

[jillybean]

DavidKok, on 2025-May-15, 00:24, said:

4♥ - 5-5 in the minors, stronger than 4NT. The cheaper bid of the two shows the stronger hand to facilitate slam exploration.

P.S.: I am aware of the absurdity of using my own detailed competitive agreements on an auction where the original pair hasn't discussed Lebensohl. Nevertheless I think it's interesting to discuss how one could handle these hands.

Yes, it's interesting, and there is no bidding space left.

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[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2025-May-15, 06:57, said:

Yes, it's interesting, and there is no bidding space left.

Try Dual RKC

[DavidKok]

jillybean, on 2025-May-15, 06:57, said:

Yes, it's interesting, and there is no bidding space left.

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My 4♥ is already a very strong bid, and partner could have made a flag bid with a suitable hand (4♠ = 'I like clubs', 4NT = 'I like diamonds', to allow for Last Train bids after either). I'll pass here as partner is showing zero sign of life.

To the people bidding RKCB: how many key cards do you think partner has, and how many do you need for slam? What is your plan if partner shows the expected zero? I think this is a near-perfect hand to not use any ace-asking tools on.

jillybean, on 2025-May-14, 19:12, said:

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I assume you would X, now what?

A freebie: why are the opponents not raising hearts, and why is nobody bidding spades?

[jillybean]

High level agreements here. I do appreciate hearing what is available for serious partnerships.
Meanwhile, this pair is trying to improve and so far, have few agreements.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2025-May-15, 09:43, said:

High level agreements here. I do appreciate hearing what is available for serious partnerships.
Meanwhile, this pair is trying to improve and so far, have few agreements.

One good agreement is to avoid a takeout double when one can’t handle partner’s probable auctions.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2025-May-15, 10:01, said:

One good agreement is to avoid a takeout double when one can’t handle partner’s probable auctions.

See my edited OP

[smerriman]

 DavidKok, on 2025-May-15, 09:28, said:

To the people bidding RKCB: how many key cards do you think partner has, and how many do you need for slam? What is your plan if partner shows the expected zero? I think this is a near-perfect hand to not use any ace-asking tools on.

You said people, plural, and I see only one person recommending keycard in the actual situation, so I assume you are referring to my comment about keycard if 3♦ showed values. In that context, I'm happy to play 6 if partner has none.

(Of course, this is all moot given the double.)

[DavidKok]

smerriman, on 2025-May-14, 19:28, said:

Was leb available (i.e. is 3♦ showing values)? If so, I think I'd just go straight to keycard.

Huibertus, on 2025-May-15, 06:42, said:

Now that you have double and you don't play Lebensohl you have to make sure you get a chance at RKCB. [...] So, 4NT it'll be.

mw64ahw, on 2025-May-15, 07:36, said:

Try Dual RKC

I was referring to these comments.