[pescetom]

I have always loved playing with brand new cards, especially thin plastic ones that slide effortlessly when opening the hand. At the beginning of the teams tournament on Friday, while I was enjoying this sensation suddenly half the room (or rather, the tent - we were playing under a circus tent) was groaning and screaming in disbelief "I can't see my cards!". I looked at mine, which were perfectly readable and very pleasing too: AKxxx x Axx Kxx. I shrugged thinking they must be complaining about the light, and soon I was Declarer in 4 spades as the grumbling subsided. Then the dummy came down and suddenly I understood: the right hand side of each suit was completely blank! They must be opening their cards towards the left, instead of towards the right like me.

This set me thinking about a few things.

Why do such cards exist? I realise that historically all cards had the rank only on the left, and I've seen it in some traditional European packs, but these were English AKQJ and compact format, simply without the rank and suit indication on top-right and bottom-left. Is there some other game that wants them this way? Or someone who wants to insert publicity on both faces? The club had bought them in internet because they were cheap, without attention to the layout.

How common is it to open the cards towards the left? It seemed about half the players were having trouble, so it is not simply linked to being right or left handed. I am right handed and I hold my cards on the left and open them towards the right, but that doesn't seem as common as I expected. I seem to remember mycroft commenting that he was right handed but did the opposite, but I wasn't paying attention as it didn't seem to make any difference in terms of practicality.

And is this pack legal? Our RA has nothing to say about the pack. The laws say that the RA may mandate that the cards are symmetrical, indicating that otherwise they may not be. But what does the WBF mean by symmetrical? I imagine they are thinking about rotational symmetry (the letter 'S') rather than relational symmetry (the letter 'B'). A standard English pack has rotational symmetry (more or less, as only diamonds are truly symmetrical: the other suits have the central suit pip in one vertical direction, which I guess could be used to signal during play). But I don't see any requirement to have the rank/suit at all four corners.

[johnu]

I never really thought about it, but I only remember seeing and using cards that have denominations on the upper left and lower right.

pescetom, on 2025-July-14, 09:17, said:

And is this pack legal? Our RA has nothing to say about the pack. The laws say that the RA may mandate that the cards are symmetrical, indicating that otherwise they may not be. But what does the WBF mean by symmetrical?

By symmetrical, I assumed that they meant the back of the cards, not the front of the cards since non-symmetrical back of cards could be used for illicit signaling. Fronts of the cards are usually not symmetrical, although they could also be used for signaling on defense.

[pescetom]

johnu, on 2025-July-14, 15:20, said:

I never really thought about it, but I only remember seeing and using cards that have denominations on the upper left and lower right.

That is (IIRC) what these cards had. But the issue is that people here are used to having them on all four corners, and those who spread cards to the right need it on the upper right. Are you really used to seeing only upper left lower right, or all four?

johnu, on 2025-July-14, 15:20, said:

By symmetrical, I assumed that they meant the back of the cards, not the front of the cards since non-symmetrical back of cards could be used for illicit signaling. Fronts of the cards are usually not symmetrical, although they could also be used for signaling on defense.

Law 1B WRT to symmetrical says "The face of the Cards", IOW the front.
As I commented, a standard English pack is almost symmetrical in a rotational sense, although the Ace of spades (at least) and the odd ranks outside of diamonds have a give-away at the centre that could be used for signalling on defence.

[johnu]

johnu, on 2025-July-14, 15:20, said:

By symmetrical, I assumed that they meant the back of the cards, not the front of the cards since non-symmetrical back of cards could be used for illicit signaling. Fronts of the cards are usually not symmetrical, although they could also be used for signaling on defense.

Of course, Fantunes proved that they could cheat even with symmetrical cards. I guess we need square cards with 4 identical sides.

[pescetom]

johnu, on 2025-July-14, 20:46, said:

Of course, Fantunes proved that they could cheat even with symmetrical cards. I guess we need square cards with 4 identical sides.

Round cards might work better in this sense.

[barmar]

pescetom, on 2025-July-15, 01:39, said:

Round cards might work better in this sense.

I found round playing cards but they don't really solve the problem. The cards are physically circular, but the pips are the same layout as typical rectangular cards.

[mycroft]

Four-index cards are (yet another) European-only thing that isn't necessary for real (that is, right-handed, American) bridge players.

As a leftie, it is just another of those things I had to learn to do "wrong" (like bid with right-handed bidding boxes) or we all have to do "wrong" (like four-colour or solid Major/outline minor index cards) .

There were a set of boards I played with recently that were four-index; I decided to try to sort them the "normal" way. I couldn't. Well, I could, but it was very uncomfortable and took me twice as long.

Like all the righties that bid badly with bidding boxes (near 10% in recent experience), I think they've just decided that the cards have to go in their right hand and everything else follows; it's just that they've been able to sort "the wrong way" because all their cards have been four-index. My Norteamericano colleagues don't get that luxury; how they handle it is a mystery to me.

Obviously given the amount of scare quotes, there might be some sarcasm in this response.

OTOH, the round cards I've seen have almost all been 6-index. But they're impossible to hold anyway for exactly the same reason we don't play bridge with poker cards (only more so).

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2025-July-21, 14:03, said:

Four-index cards are (yet another) European-only thing that isn't necessary for real (that is, right-handed, American) bridge players.

As a leftie, it is just another of those things I had to learn to do "wrong" (like bid with right-handed bidding boxes) or we all have to do "wrong" (like four-colour or solid Major/outline minor index cards) .

There were a set of boards I played with recently that were four-index; I decided to try to sort them the "normal" way. I couldn't. Well, I could, but it was very uncomfortable and took me twice as long.

Like all the righties that bid badly with bidding boxes (near 10% in recent experience), I think they've just decided that the cards have to go in their right hand and everything else follows; it's just that they've been able to sort "the wrong way" because all their cards have been four-index. My Norteamericano colleagues don't get that luxury; how they handle it is a mystery to me.

Thanks, you were sorely missed, both because of your previous quote and being one of the few people likely to be ready to tackle the left/rights issues
I missed that you were a leftie, now I'm even more confused: are you suggesting that it is "natural" for a rightie to hold the cards in their right hand, in which case I am a weirdo?
Do others agree?
As a rightie (although goofy on a snowboard, despite being hopelessly regular on a windsurf) I hold my cards in the left hand, and always assumed it was normal to do so, although I am not likely to notice if not.

[mycroft]

I'd say that about one in 10, one in 15 right-handed bridge players in my area will either move the box over or reach across their body to bid with their left hand with their cards firmly ensconced in their right (and then twist into other contortions to put the bidding card down the "right way" up). It always looks odd to me when it happens, *especially* as I had to train myself to bid with my right hand (cards in the left for the auction, put them down to put the auction away/write in the contract, pick up with right hand, pull cards to play with left) to the point where people don't notice I'm left-handed (even with an Iron Ring, which 30+% of Canadians recognize).

In other words, no, you're "normal". But I bet there are several who hold the cards in their right hand, at least when fanning them, and use the "leftie" indexes. Which they've never realized could be an issue until "today", because Europeans are (occasionally) sensible and considerate.

I'm looking at replacing/duplicating my left-handed bidding cards (we don't travel with them, wouldn't mind a set down south). I've thought about getting the contortionists to try out my box, and see if they want a set themselves, if they're going to insist on "doing things rong" - for no other reason than to cut down the per-box shipping costs.

Please note - there are sets that are falsely advertised as "ambidextrous". Not only are they hard to read (past the game level, at least), try using them left-handed, and you'll understand my choice of adjective within a round. Trust me, it's better to "bid upside down" than have to read those things in a slam auction.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2025-July-22, 10:08, said:

I'd say that about one in 10, one in 15 right-handed bridge players in my area will either move the box over or reach across their body to bid with their left hand with their cards firmly ensconced in their right (and then twist into other contortions to put the bidding card down the "right way" up). It always looks odd to me when it happens, *especially* as I had to train myself to bid with my right hand (cards in the left for the auction, put them down to put the auction away/write in the contract, pick up with right hand, pull cards to play with left) to the point where people don't notice I'm left-handed (even with an Iron Ring, which 30+% of Canadians recognize).

In other words, no, you're "normal". But I bet there are several who hold the cards in their right hand, at least when fanning them, and use the "leftie" indexes. Which they've never realized could be an issue until "today", because Europeans are (occasionally) sensible and considerate.

I'm looking at replacing/duplicating my left-handed bidding cards (we don't travel with them, wouldn't mind a set down south). I've thought about getting the contortionists to try out my box, and see if they want a set themselves, if they're going to insist on "doing things rong" - for no other reason than to cut down the per-box shipping costs.

Please note - there are sets that are falsely advertised as "ambidextrous". Not only are they hard to read (past the game level, at least), try using them left-handed, and you'll understand my choice of adjective within a round. Trust me, it's better to "bid upside down" than have to read those things in a slam auction.

Thanks, all this is an eye-opener on complexity we tend to ignore or minimize.
Thinking about it, I do know one rightie who goes into the contortions you describe, although I never really thought about it.
We also have a blind player who not content with the inevitable problems of a bidding box, is also left handed
The EBU regulations condescendingly expect him to merely announce his call and let someone else sort it out, but no way would he accept that.
"Ambidextrous" does sound like a fix worse than the problem itself.

Electronic bidding is a very good idea.

[pilowsky]

If your right hand looks like \ when you write you're likely right-handed and left brain dominant.
If it curls over and looks like it wants to be your left hand / you're probably right handed but right brain dominant.
The reverse is true for lefties.
Truly ambidextrous people are quite rare.
Useful to know if you're having brain surgery but otherwise just mildly interesting.
I don't know of any evidence that cortical dominance affects card sorting since AFAIK all English speaking people still read from left to right.
Studies have attempted to examine the relationship between handedness and schizophrenia but it all seems like BS.