[hallway]

I thought I understood the concept. :

( btw Understanding in no relates to Applying )

But there is obviously more to it than I imagined

So a guide as to:
(a) how to sacrifice
( how to bid against a recognised sacrifice
© how to defend
would be much appreciated .

My idea was that when both partnerships were showing a fit in the bidding that one then factored in the cost/gain of bidding beyond one's contract.

Much is said/written about Bridge's principle of Full Disclosure so what actually happened came as a shock. >

In a tournament (real life) two boards left to play . The hand started out in a straightforward manner.

1H (P) 2H -me - 4 card support <10pts (P)
3H (P) 4H - 4 h's 7pts in AQJxx of Diamonds ........
I relax THEN ( 5D)

whipped off my glasses gave them a quick clean but no it still says 5D
I enquired of RHO the meaning of her P's bid
she replied , "my P wants to play in Diamonds"
to which I succinctly replied , "codswollop"
whereupon she amended her description to, [glow=red,2,300]it's a sacrifice ![/glow]
remembering our instructions to refrain from unnecessary chat I clamped my teeth shut and thought what I thought !! among which was the simple glaring fact that 5H down 1 = bottom board , 5DX down 3 still = bottom board.
I chose to X the 5D simply because I saw no reason why I should have to sit and watch my P struggle to make 5H.
I give Declarer her due she played the cards very well - sat up a little straighter when she discovered just where the Diamonds were !! and she held out for 3 down.
And yes when I signed the sheet there it was 4H by W making 4 all the way down - no one made 5 and no one mislaid 1. 5DX down 3 = bottom board. :'(

Full Disclosure ?
Talk about sacrifices - we were certainly the lambs to the slaughter.

Help please

[pbleighton]

Maureen-

You didn't show the 5D bidder's hand. You also didn't specify vulnerability, though I will assume favorable (for your opps), since down 3 doubled is a top score for them.

I am surprised that your opponent didn't enter the bidding in the first round. Would you post the hand, as well as you can remember?

It appears that your opponent either got very lucky, or should have bid sooner. There's nothing unethical IMO about "lying in wait", but with a preemptive hand it's usually not a good idea.

Peter

[the hog]

There is also nothing unethical about the explanation. The 5D bidder could have a variety of hands - one where he genuinely was sandbagging and expects to make 5D, or a sacrifice. His partner does not know what type of hand this is. The correct explanation if asked is "To play".

[hallway]

Peter -

I was too stunned - it is all I can do to remember my own hand.

Yes, we were Vul 4H making, + 620, they were not 5DX down 3, - 500 :'(

Now we have, lying in wait and sandbagging and sacrificing - mmmm vague memories of teacher writing on the whiteboard ' the right to know how to defend ' How does one ?

btw what does 'full disclosure' mean ?

[pbleighton]

Maureen -

My interpretation of "full disclosure" is that the partner of the player who makes a call must disclose ALL pertinent information which he/she is aware of.

Ron writes:
"His partner does not know what type of hand this is. The correct explanation if asked is "To play". "

Exactly. This is a very unusual bid, and the partnership is unlikely to have an agreement for it. If they did, they would be required to disclose it.

Maybe this distinction will help. An individual PLAYER may make any bid he or she likes, including psyches - opening one spade with a void, for example. This is ethical, though sometimes confusing and annoying. However, a PAIR may not withhold information about the meaning of a bid, known to them, but not generally used or applied.

Does this help?

Peter

[Free]

It's just bad luck. I don't know if it was playing against beginners or pros, but my experience is that you can get bottoms easily against beginners because they can bid crazy things, and you can get bottoms against pros because they know what they do very well.

In this hand, they have found the perfect defense. It's normally based on the thought to go -3 (because that's what defending is all about: points of the doubled downtricks < points of the game). In some cases, you won't even make 4H, and then he's screwed, in this case, it's 4H= and 5D*-3. You can't do anything about it because you can't make 5H, so you have to take the 500 points and hope there are some more like that. I guess opponent wouldn't bid 5D if NV - NV, and certainly not when V, but now he can easily go -3.

Why he didn't bid at 2-level or 3-level could be because he has only DK which is very weak (I myself had some bad experience with these kind of trump suits). In 2nd hand (when partner hasn't bid yet) he could be afraid of misleading partner thinking his suit is better (and end up in 3NT without any chance), in the next round he has nothing to bid! If you would pass, then he hasn't got to defend against 3H. So he won't push you in a game if not necessary. After you guys bid game, he takes a little gamble to play 5D* as a 2D-contract to make (unless he can see that 4H goes down)...

Sacrifices are mostly done when NV against V. I even play sacrifice 2-openings (obligated with 0-7HCP) when NV where partner almost allways passes (0-17HCP), just to make it harder on opponents! (They don't know anything)
Allways remember that you can do a lot when NV against V, and that you have to bid good suits when V against NV. If you have the favorable vulnerability, you have to count your possible tricks (with these which partner has) and see if you can make enough so your doubled contract gives you a better result than letting opps play game.
In this deal, it's clear that you have around 25HCP, and nothing more. So if opponent has 7HCP, he can expect about 8-10HCP with his partner. With that, he might be able to make 2D so "let's bid a sacrifice".

[inquiry]

Beginners guide to sacraficing....

First--- always look at vulnerability...

A) if you are and they are not, don't sacrafice. If you make a "preemptive" bid, you still expect to make what you bid.

If they are vulnerable, and you are not, vul, you can be wild... preempt at any suggestion that it is their hand and you have the cards....

c) At equal vulnerability, if both vul, be within two tricks of your bid, if neither side is vulnerable, within 3 of your bid...

To put this into context, consider this the 4321 rule. When you are not vul, and they are, be withint 4 tricks of your bid. When neither vul, within 3, both vul 2, you vul and they not... plan to make or be within 1 of your bid...

Ok.. so first thing you look at is vulnerability.The next thing you look at is position. In fourth seat, there is no need to preempt unless you think you can make what you bid (say... ppp3S.... you plan to make)...

That fourth seat thing is fairly obvious. There is one that is less obvious... in second seat... you want to tighten up your preempts.... that is, after you right hand opponent passed and you have less than an opening hand, there is an equal chance it is your parnter who holds a good hand as it is your lho holds a good hand (if you are weak, in first seat, there are two chances opponents ahve good hand to one for your partner). So in second seat, always be "on top" of your preempts. Don't open 2hearts on some yucky hand.. have a "maximum" for the 2heart bid...etc.

In third chair, mix it up... forget rule of 4 when not vul, preempt on 5 or 6 card suit... throw monkey wrench into the machinary. You take your chance...

BTW, this agressiveness not vul versus vul explains the 5diamond bid agaisnt you.

Now for dealing with preempts... it is often very difficult, that is why people preempt, after all. I think a good rule of thumb for beginners is to assume your partner has 7/8 points. And bid his points. So if you have enough for 3S overcall, but if partner has 7 pts you can make game, simply bid 4S, not 3S. This rule means that if your partner bids over a preempt and you have a bland 8 points... DONT BID, your partner is bidding your points. This will be hard to do... i know, but there you go.

Hope that helps.

Ben

[Free]

Quote

c) At equal vulnerability, if both vul, be within two tricks of your bid, if neither side is vulnerable, within 3 of your bid...

To put this into context, consider this the 4321 rule. When you are not vul, and they are, be withint 4 tricks of your bid. When neither vul, within 3, both vul 2, you vul and they not... plan to make or be within 1 of your bid...

I don't really agree with the 4321 rule, I rather use the 3221 rule. That's because I just count the points for each downtrick and you come to a simple calculation of how many you can go down.

-4 -3 -2 -1 3NT
NV-V 800 500 300 100 600 -> 3
NV-NV 800 500 300 100 400 -> 2
V-V 1100 800 500 200 600 -> 2
V-NV 1100 800 500 200 400 -> 1

There's just no difference between V-V and NV-NV, if you play -3 you have a bad defense when equal vulnerability... This is just mathematics, maybe the world class players have a reason to play with the 4321-rule, but I'm not convinced of any advantages you have at this moment.

[pbleighton]

Free writes:

"There's just no difference between V-V and NV-NV, if you play -3 you have a bad defense when equal vulnerability... This is just mathematics, maybe the world class players have a reason to play with the 4321-rule, but I'm not convinced of any advantages you have at this moment."

This math is correct if you ar sure that:
1) The opps will make game, and
2) You will be doubled for penalty

I believe Ben was addressing more general situations. If you think you are or may be preempting a part score and/or think you may not be doubled, then you should be more aggressive, especially NV.

Peter