[csdenmark]

matmat, on Jan 17 2007, 05:05 AM, said:

If I ever play against you remind me to pull out the local home-brewed club system. it's got a name, it's called seismic club. I'll be sure to tell you ahead of time that we are playing it, but will, intentionally, fail to announce or explain any of the bids. Let's see how you'll like it.  I mean, it's standard seismic club... you should know it...

For that you will never get away with me without alert + explain everything not included in your pre-alert.

[FrancesHinden]

csdenmark, on Jan 16 2007, 10:57 PM, said:

To me it looks like Frances has been in doubt because it looks like what he calls....

As a frequent poster on these forums, it would be really nice if you could call me "she" in future, thanks.

[csdenmark]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 17 2007, 12:21 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Jan 16 2007, 10:57 PM, said:

To me it looks like Frances has been in doubt because it looks like what he calls....

As a frequent poster on these forums, it would be really nice if you could call me "she" in future, thanks.

Sorry Frances - No offence intended, certainly not.

[glen]

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 05:07 AM, said:

I don't misread I think. The explanation is completely according to book. Thats the implication of canape'.

starting post said:

US: Please explain the auction
THEM: 1H natural, possible canape
THEM: 2S non-forcing

Did you miss this key question: so that is how you would type them into FD? Just "natural, possible canape" for 1♥ and let everybody assume point count etc. from that, and "non-forcing" for the 2♠ bid?

Let me put it this way: could you please post the text of how you would describe the two bids in FD in reply to this post?

We will then compare your description with their description.

Btw Frances, I've asked for a [RANT] and [/RANT] feature - it would have a nice bold red font with steam rising. I would have used it here.

[inquiry]

officeglen, on Jan 17 2007, 08:00 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 05:07 AM, said:

I don't misread I think. The explanation is completely according to book. Thats the implication of canape'.

starting post said:

US: Please explain the auction
THEM: 1H natural, possible canape
THEM: 2S non-forcing

Did you miss this key question: so that is how you would type them into FD? Just "natural, possible canape" for 1♥ and let everybody assume point count etc. from that, and "non-forcing" for the 2♠ bid?

Let me put it this way: could you please post the text of how you would describe the two bids in FD in reply to this post?

We will then compare your description with their description.

Btw Frances, I've asked for a [RANT] and [/RANT] feature - it would have a nice bold red font with steam rising. I would have used it here.

FOR FD of first auction

for 1♥ check 4+, describe - maybe canape' or write frequently has a longer side suit

for 2♠ (after intial pass in response to 1♥ opening), check 6+, check non-forcing, describe as 6-x-(4x),

if 2♠ (after initial pass in response to a minor opening, check 6+, check non-forcing, describe as 6(4xx) (any four card suit).

if 2♠ without initial pass, in response to 1♥, check 6+, non-forcing, descirbe as "no four card support"

if 2♠ without initial pass, in response to 1♥, check 6+, non-forcing, give point count range (no side suit information available in this case).

You could of course include the hcp range should you have an agreement

[csdenmark]

officeglen, on Jan 17 2007, 03:00 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 05:07 AM, said:

I don't misread I think. The explanation is completely according to book. Thats the implication of canape'.

starting post said:

US: Please explain the auction
THEM: 1H natural, possible canape
THEM: 2S non-forcing

Did you miss this key question: so that is how you would type them into FD? Just "natural, possible canape" for 1♥ and let everybody assume point count etc. from that, and "non-forcing" for the 2♠ bid?

Let me put it this way: could you please post the text of how you would describe the two bids in FD in reply to this post?

We will then compare your description with their description.

Btw Frances, I've asked for a [RANT] and [/RANT] feature - it would have a nice bold red font with steam rising. I would have used it here.

1♦=12-16HcP, 3+♦. Canape' style - may have longer
1♦-1♥=5+HcP, 4+♥, Round. Canape' - may have longer
1♦-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer

I dont know whether your comment about the word 'rant' is for me. I assumed it meant something like 'stolen' but looking up my dictionary I see explained as noisy rubbish talk, boring talk, declamation, noisy party. None of these explanations make much sense to me.

[glen]

inquiry, on Jan 17 2007, 08:31 AM, said:

You could of course include the hcp range should you have an agreement

Wouldn't almost all systems have a hcp range for an opening bid, or if no upper range, then state forcing? I believe the 1♥ opening either needs a range stated for it or a "forcing" if they play it as unlimited. If the opening is limited, they need to state the approximate range.

How would you like to play against ETM Tops (as an example) and get the FD of "5+♥s" for the 1♥ opening. Later, via trial and error, you find out the range is 8-17.

[glen]

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 08:40 AM, said:

1♦=12-16HcP, 3+♦. Canape' style - may have longer
1♦-1♥=5+HcP, 4+♥, Round. Canape' - may have longer
1♦-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer

Please re-read starting posting first example. We are looking for FD of 1♥ opening opposite a passed hand, and the FD of the P-1♥--2♠ bid. Could you please provide these two FD examples.

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 04:40 PM, said:

I dont know whether your comment about the word 'rant' is for me. I assumed it meant something like 'stolen' but looking up my dictionary I see explained as noisy rubbish talk, boring talk, declamation, noisy party. None of these explanations make much sense to me.

I'm making an assumption here, however, I believe that Frances' choice of the word "Rant" in the title of this thread is a fine example of British self-deprecation...

Frances (probably) intended this thread as a chance to vent some steam about an incident that she found rather annoying...

[csdenmark]

officeglen, on Jan 17 2007, 03:44 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 08:40 AM, said:

1♦=12-16HcP, 3+♦. Canape' style - may have longer
1♦-1♥=5+HcP, 4+♥, Round. Canape' - may have longer
1♦-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer

Please re-read starting posting first example. We are looking for FD of 1♥ opening opposite a passed hand, and the FD of the P-1♥--2♠ bid. Could you please provide these two FD examples.

Aha - here it is. It is not so detailed.


1♥=12-16HcP, 4+♥. Canape' style - may have longer
1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer
1♥-3♠=Preempt

[FrancesHinden]

The verb "to rant" is used in English (at least, in England) to mean "to go on at length about something you find irritating or annoying but aren't actually going to do anything about." There is no real point or value to a rant other than to make you feel better.

Common topics, round here at least, are
- South West Trains
- Road humps and other traffic "calming" measures
- Heathrow airport
- The dreadful customer service of <large organisation of your choice>

[glen]

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 08:53 AM, said:

1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer

So 2♠ is forcing (since no upper range given) even though it could have just 5 HCP? Or are you just describing P-1♥--2♠ and there is a different description for 1♥-2♠ (unpassed hand)? If 1♥-2♠ is 5+HcP, 4+♠ etc., what is 1♥-1♠? Is your description of 2♠ perhaps the description of a 1♠ response?

[csdenmark]

officeglen, on Jan 17 2007, 04:18 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 08:53 AM, said:

1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer

So 2♠ is forcing (since no upper range given) even though it could have just 5 HCP? Or are you just describing P-1♥--2♠ and there is a different description for 1♥-2♠ (unpassed hand)? If 1♥-2♠ is 5+HcP, 4+♠ etc., what is 1♥-1♠? Is your description of 2♠ perhaps the description of a 1♠ response?

The book is not so very clear. Therefore I added 3♠. 2♠ therefore normally means 5+♠ and some perspectives. It is no preempt but invite.

Holding a weak hand you try to stay low bidding 1♠ or the preempt.

The book does not inform much about passed hand bidding in offensive - it is more clear about that for defensive. This makes good sense because you will often play defensive playing Blue Club. It is a passive system - hope you understand this term.

The text I have in FD for 1♥-1♠/1♥-2♠ is exactly the same: 5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer

[glen]

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 09:26 AM, said:

The text I have in FD for 1♥-1♠/1♥-2♠ is exactly the same: 5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer

If one describes 1♥-1♠ with the exactly same meaning for 1♥-2♠, this is clearly not full disclosure to the opponents (even if the partnership would just deliberately and randomly decide between the two bids, they should provide that info). So at this point, we can conclude that while "the explanation is completely according to book", the book is not complete, and thus just providing these descriptions would not result in "You have been informed of your opps".

The one exception would be if the opponents were using that book, and so were just providing the description as given in the book, without having noticed or thought about that 1♥-1♠ was exactly the same as 1♥-2♠.

[csdenmark]

officeglen, on Jan 17 2007, 04:38 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 09:26 AM, said:

The text I have in FD for 1♥-1♠/1♥-2♠ is exactly the same: 5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer

If one describes 1♥-1♠ with the exactly same meaning for 1♥-2♠, this is clearly not full disclosure to the opponents (even if the partnership would just deliberately and randomly decide between the two bids, they should provide that info). So at this point, we can conclude that while "the explanation is completely according to book", the book is not complete, and thus just providing these descriptions would not result in "You have been informed of your opps".

The one exception would be if the opponents were using that book, and so were just providing the description as given in the book, without having noticed or thought about that 1♥-1♠ was exactly the same as 1♥-2♠.

Yes - Blue Team systems were 30-40 years ago more well-known. Today people seems to have a different approach to features and quality in bridge.

That I have chosen the same FD text for the 2 continuations means nothing else than I am unable to see the correct interpretation which may differ from the stated one. Therefore I informed you of how to interpretate. The 2♠ is mostly an invite for trump but as 4+cards is may also be a balanced invite. Here you need to bear in mind the frequent cue continuations and slam approach. Those are special to Blue Club.

[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on Jan 16 2007, 08:30 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jan 17 2007, 10:40 AM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jan 16 2007, 05:58 PM, said:

I played against a table with 10,000 masterpoints playing 2/1 on Sunday in a qualifier.  The auction went (with us passing throughout).

1♦  1♥
1NT    3NT

I was later very surprised to find out that opener had 4-3-4-2 distribution, and they got an overtrick from it. 

I play this style: a 1♠ bid by opener shows an unbalanced hand. Trust me, i know all the arguments against the style, but it works (for me and my partners, at least). However we alert the 1N rebid, as well as the 1♠ rebid. I don't actually know if the alert is mandated and, until i get told otherwise by a director, I will continue to alert...

I too play this style. Bidding 2 suits for me also shows an unbalanced hand - at least some 5422 shape. Jtfanclub, I am surprised that you are surprised, as this is very common practice.

Hmmm...not common practice where I'm from. Given the local flavoring, I was not expecting it. I certainly did not mean to imply that I don't like the method- I do, especially if 2 of the other minor is effectively checkback (1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣ asks about spade length).

Stephen- nice catch there, thanks. So calling the director would have (or should have) been pointless. How odd that it's no longer alerted.

[hotShot]

The difference between 1♠ and 2♠ seems to be that 1M is 3+ cards.
After 1♦, if 1NT shows 10-11 HCP, what can you bid with 6-9 HCP and no 4card Major? e.g. with (32)35
You need to bid a 3 card major so that partner can bid 1NT.

[csdenmark]

hotShot, on Jan 17 2007, 07:35 PM, said:

The difference between 1♠ and 2♠ seems to be  that 1M is 3+ cards.
After 1♦, if 1NT shows 10-11 HCP, what can you bid with 6-9 HCP and no 4card Major? e.g. with (32)35
You need to bid a 3 card major so that partner can bid 1NT.

No - it is more the opposite way. You are allowed to pass with 0-7HcP, 3+cards.

Please remember even it is a passive system it is still limit openings. This means you try to stop unless you see perspectives. This is the reason why 1♦-1♥ can be a 3carder. You have something similar in polish pass systems - Regres and Suspensor.

1♦♥♠-1NT=6-7HcP, Signoff

[matmat]

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 05:12 AM, said:

matmat, on Jan 17 2007, 05:05 AM, said:

If I ever play against you remind me to pull out the local home-brewed club system. it's got a name, it's called seismic club. I'll be sure to tell you ahead of time that we are playing it, but will, intentionally, fail to announce or explain any of the bids. Let's see how you'll like it.  I mean, it's standard seismic club... you should know it...

For that you will never get away with me without alert + explain everything not included in your pre-alert.

why not? our bids are all standard seismic club and publicly accessible through the web, i believe, so you should be familiar with the system.

[kenberg]

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 08:53 AM, said:

officeglen, on Jan 17 2007, 03:44 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Jan 17 2007, 08:40 AM, said:

1♦=12-16HcP, 3+♦. Canape' style - may have longer
1♦-1♥=5+HcP, 4+♥, Round. Canape' - may have longer
1♦-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer

Please re-read starting posting first example. We are looking for FD of 1♥ opening opposite a passed hand, and the FD of the P-1♥--2♠ bid. Could you please provide these two FD examples.

Aha - here it is. It is not so detailed.


1♥=12-16HcP, 4+♥. Canape' style - may have longer
1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer
1♥-3♠=Preempt

Let me just check back here to make sure I have this right. Third hand opens 1H, promising four hearts and opening values. His partner, looking at five high card points and four spades, bids 2S. Are there hands on record where they actually did this?