[dickiegera]

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3NT was bad. 4♠ has good shot of making.
Who was wrong here. I believe that both of us however I do think that it should have been opened 3♠
and 3NT pulled to 4♠. I sitting south probably should have bid 4♠ however I was not sure of north's 7 card suit. I assumed that with 7 Spades north would pull to 4♠.

I have read that one never put down a 7 card major in dummy unless it is trump.

Thank you

[kenrexford]

I cannot imagine bidding 3NT with the South hand, personally.

[JLOGIC]

Yeah, 3N bid is horrible

[JLOGIC]

dickiegera, on 2011-March-31, 13:50, said:

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I have read that one never put down a 7 card major in dummy unless it is trump.

Are you sure? Is this some kind of inflation? That is an 8 card suit, not a mediocre 7 card suit!

[mycroft]

1 spade showed 5 (I assume).
2 spades strongly implied 6 (at least in my part of the 2/1 world, where >2M doesn't require extras. Back "home" in Ontario, where 2S might have to be bid on any misfitting minimum, less of an implication).
3 spades strongly implied 7 - if opener didn't have a club card, or a club suit (9xxx is a stopper, right?), or secondary heart support, or diamond support, then what else?
If all he's got is spades, spades, and more spades, stiff Q is easily enough support for him.

tl;dr: what kenrexford said.

[Free]

Even opposite a good 6 card ♠ you want to play 4♠ in some cases. Here partner strongly suggests he has 7 of them, so just raise. To put it mildly: 3NT is horrible.

[xarlos]

Getting to game:

North had 14 pts (including dist.). With 7♠to the A, opening 1 is weak - but N doesn't know what S has. I open 1 quite often with this hand - and wait for P.

P's 2♥ promises at least 6 pts. and 4♥with at least 1 honor.

We now have a minimum of 20 points - + North's 7♠to the A! The 2 rebid is weak - but necessary to further explore P's strength. P's 3♦shows secondary suit - 4? - + at least one honor.

At this point, it N has all the information necessary to rebid at 4. It is up to declarer to bid game in his/her suit.

[gwnn]

To something possibly more interesting - who's up for a 4♠ opening?

[Quantumcat]

gwnn, on 2011-April-01, 05:40, said:

To something possibly more interesting - who's up for a 4♠ opening?

I think you need a better quality suit than that to open 4♠. If you moved the ♥K into the spades (still having 7 of them) you'd have a 1♠ opening, but moving the ♣Q into the spades would make a lovely 4♠ opening.

Anyway, no one has considered 4♦ as an alternative to 3NT or 4♠. That seems to be what he has. From South's point of view, North could easily have three diamonds but not have a 3NT bid.

xarlos, on 2011-April-01, 04:49, said:

North had 14 pts (including dist.).

You shouldn't count singleton kings twice: Either they're singletons or they're kings but you can't use them as both.

Quote

P's 2♥ promises at least 6 pts. and 4♥with at least 1 honor.

Where did you get this from?? 2♥ in 2/1 promises GF values, and in standard promises 10 or 11+ HCP. It also ALWAYS promises at least five hearts!

Quote

The 2 rebid is weak - but necessary to further explore P's strength.

The 2♠ rebid, being 2/1, is made with ANY hand with 6+ spades, or any hand with 5 spades and 11-15 HCP without heart support and not balanced. The 2♥ response sets up a gameforce, there is no need to jump unless you want to irrevocably set trumps (like you have a 7/8 card suolid suit, and want to make sure partner knows it is trumps right away so cuebidding can commence, and we don't waste lots of levels trying to convince partner this will be trumps and we don't care if he has a void).

If you are going to post in the 2/1 forum, you should at least know the one basic principle that defines a 2/1 system: a 2/1 response is GF

[manudude03]

That's a slightly harsh way of putting it. I would basically say that 2♠ is any hand which doesn't warrant a different bid, this can include 20 counts (AKJxx K xxxx AKQ for example- and yes, I don't bid NT with that).

[Quantumcat]

Ok yeah it depends on your agreements. Some are happy to rebid a second suit with no extra values, so 2♠ is a genuine spade rebid. There are probably lots of different agreements that people have about opener's rebid.
The point I meant was that the guy I quoted thought 2♠ was a weak rebid. Even in Standard a common agreement is that a 2/1 response is forcing to at least 2NT, so 2♠ could actually be a very good hand.

[the_dude]

I agree with he bidding until the final 3NT.

- I wouldn't open 3♠ with this hand NV. Too good and too many values outside of spades.

- Opener had every opportunity to bid 3NT over 3♦ but did not. Surely South should look at his Q♠ and Ax of ♣ and come to the right conclusion.

- Even if 2♠ is sometimes bid on 5 (I agree with this approach), a third bid of 3♠ should show a suit that can play opposite singleton Q. You shouldn't be bidding spades 3 times on K10xxxx.

[the_clown]

A clear 4♠ for me, I want to play in 4♠, no matter if partner has good hand, in which case 4♠ will probably be the right contract. Even if we are in misfit and I open 1♠ my partner will force me to game, so we will probably end up in 4♠ anyway. If opps have game, it will be difficult to find after 4♠.

[kenrexford]

If anything, I am surprised that the debate here is between passing and bidding 4♠ and not between 4♠ and 4♣.

[Yu18772]

dickiegera, on 2011-March-31, 13:50, said:

3NT was bad. 4♠ has good shot of making.
Who was wrong here. I believe that both of us

I think that 3NT is a bad bid. In 2/1 North would have showed Hx in ♥, so North has weak hand with long spades (6+), single or xx in hearts and not very useful ♣. I dont see how 3NT can have a chance when 4♠ wouldn't make, and I easily imagine no entrances to dummy and problems in controlling ♣....

dickiegera, on 2011-March-31, 13:50, said:

however I do think that it should have been opened 3♠

That pends particular partnership understandings. For me this is 1♠ NV if I am 1st/2nd seat, and 3♠ in 3rd or any Vul, but I know plenty of good players who would disagree and open 1 always or 3 always.

dickiegera, on 2011-March-31, 13:50, said:

....and 3NT pulled to 4♠.

Why? Because it would work this time?
With a bad suit, that you already showed 6/7 cards and Qxxx in the 4th suit - North knows that this is a misfit, and probably regrets opening, but the ♠ suit is not good enough to play 4 versus x, or void..... it has 3 losers alone. Pulling partners 3NT would say - I dont think you know what you are doing....and if you held a hand that makes 3NT ( ♠- ♥AJTxxx ♦KQJT ♣KJT) you wouldn't be too happy about it (rightfully so).

[Vampyr]

Quantumcat, on 2011-April-07, 19:22, said:

The 2♠ rebid, being 2/1, is made with ANY hand with 6+ spades, or any hand with 5 spades and 11-15 HCP without heart support and not balanced.

Does 3♣, a "high reverse", show extra values? It seems to me that if you are going to accept the disadvantages of 2/1 GF, you should be allowed to shape out with minimum hands. But I am not familiar with the system, so I don't know.

Quote

If you are going to post in the 2/1 forum, you should at least know the one basic principle that defines a 2/1 system: a 2/1 response is GF

The OP did not post this in the 2/1 forum, but in the SAYC or 2/1 forum, and did not specify which he was playing.

[dickiegera]

Vampyr, on 2011-April-10, 00:01, said:

Does 3♣, a "high reverse", show extra values? It seems to me that if you are going to accept the disadvantages of 2/1 GF, you should be allowed to shape out with minimum hands. But I am not familiar with the system, so I don't know.



The OP did not post this in the 2/1 forum, but in the SAYC or 2/1 forum, and did not specify which he was playing.

We were playing 2/1.
Thank you

[jh51]

As bad as this hand is for 3NT, I've seen worse. I've bid worse. At the recent NABC my partner bid 3S in first seat at favorable vulnerability. I had a 19 HCP hand with a singleton spade Jack. If I could score a few spade tricks, I figured 3NT might have a chance. Dummy came down with 7 hearts to the Q and little else in that suit or elsewhere. There was a happy ending, as RHO had the spade K singleton and most of the missing points. He could not lead through the terrible spade suit in dummy and was forced to lead into my tenaces. My terrible bid resulted in a top board. BTW, we took no spade tricks!

[menggq]

up to 3♠ bidding ok i think,the problem is after that how to bid?from South view N sd hv ♠6+ at least but not solid and no extra hcp otherwise cant bid 1♠/2♠/3♠ this way.and South holds some very important key cards:♠Q(even single),♥A,♣A and ♦K,all these r hard points not soft points like KQJ, and 15hcp must reach a game with pd openning bid.
now u might know what i want to bid:4♠! with South hand.
by the way i wd like to say if i were North i wd change 3N to 4♠ for sure.if play 3N how can assure the long ♠ suit will be useful?Does ♥K,♣Q promise to get entry.obviously that's hard job to work 3N contract.

[Fluffy]

what you have to learn from this is that when partner has 6+ cards in a major, stiff queen is often better suppot than small doubleton.

3NT is horrible because:

-You have support for partner
-You don't stop clubs well enough.