[jillybean]

Hi, could someone please explain the benefits of supporting responders 1Major with 3 card support rather than rebidding minor (minimum hand, weakish 5minor) I've always thought it best to try to find 8 card fit regardless.

If partner continues on from 2M, would you show your 5minor after:
1C:1H
2H:2S
&
1C:1H
2H:2NT
(does 3C here ask for club stopper or just show 5-4/5-3?)

Also, knowing opener may support 1M with 3, does that effect responders decision to make a competitive 3M bid?

tyia
jillybean

[inquiry]

Let me see if I can help you out with this. But first, let me say that those of us who frequently raise with three card support are few in number and often under assualt for our concepts... :-)

Ok, first to your comment that "I've always thought it best to try to find 8 card fit regardless."... here is a secret you may not know. When your partner bids 1S over, say 1C, he might actually have a five card suit, so when you raise, you have found your eight card fit, and easily too...

Here is another issue, if your partner is weak, with a five card major, and responds 1S, and with three card support you bid 2♣ on a five card suit, you may very well play a 5-1 or 5-2 fit in a minor with a 5-3 in the major.

Here is a third issue. When you are 5-3-3-2 with three card support, you have a side suit doubleton. That provides a ruffing opportunity, so that you get a chance to gain a trick in the major by ruffing a card in you doubleton. If you play in the minor, if you ruff from your five card suit, that is just your normal long trump trick.

Here is another important issue, playing in a 4-3 fit is not horrible bridge, and in fact, many a top board at matchponts wil result from this. Especially if the only other option is to play in the minor.

Another advantage fo the direct raise, it limits your hand. If your opponnets have to worry do you have an eight card fit or a seven card fit, it causes them more headaches when balancing... to balance when you ahve seven card fit is probably wrong for them, especially if you have optional doubles available.

How to continue after 1m-1M-2M is a matter of partnership style. Misho and I, for instance, play that 3m by responder is nonforcing!!! not even forcing to 3M. We play that 2NT by responder ask for description of the opener's hand (and is obviously 1RF). But the basic rule is that wthout four card support, after your initial raise, you will not return to the major suit but rather give your partner options.

Ben

[hrothgar]

jillybean2, on Oct 7 2004, 05:59 PM, said:

Hi, could someone please explain the benefits of supporting responders 1Major with 3 card support rather than rebidding minor (minimum hand, weakish 5minor) I've always thought it best to try to find 8 card fit regardless.

If partner continues on from 2M, would you show your 5minor after:
1C:1H
2H:2S
&
1C:1H
2H:2NT
(does 3C here ask for club stopper or just show 5-4/5-3?)

Also, knowing opener may support 1M with 3, does that effect responders decision to make a competitive 3M bid?

tyia
jillybean

I am a strong believer that the raise to 2M should only promise 3 card support.
It is VERY advantageous to be the first side to identify your major suit fit.
It is equally advantageous to be able to immediately limit your strength.
A rebid style that permits a three card raise with a suitable hand accomplishes both.

Equally significant, it is VERY advantageous if the opponents are unsure whether you are declaring 2♠ with a 7 or an 8+ card fit. If you hold an 8+ card fit, the opponents need to balance. if you have a 7 card fit, balancing is MUCH more dangerous.

If you are playing this style, then advancer to should commit to playing 2M with an minimum hand. Furhter bids are NOT an attempt to "improve" the part score, but rather probes at the best game. Accordingly, auctions like

1C - 1S
2S - 2N

or

1D - 1H
2H - 2S

should be some kind of checkback....

I differ with Ben on

1C - 1S
2S - 3C

treating these as natural and forcing

[inquiry]

hrothgar, on Oct 7 2004, 12:06 PM, said:

I differ with Ben on

1C - 1S
2S - 3C

treating these as natural and forcing

Well, playing 3m as non-forcing wasn't my idea (and explains the three explanation points in my post, as this is CLEARLY highly unusual treatment). But there is a difference between not-forcing and simply trying to improve the contract. We play 3m as "fit" for the minor and game try. Opener is expectd to:

1) Bid game with good 2M raise
2) Signoff in three of the major with bad 2M raise with four cards, but
3) Can pass 3m with weak hand and three card support for the major.

The first time Misho and I had this auction I bid 3C as a slam try and was shocked and dismayed when he passed, we missed game. However, after going over hands and thinking about it, I now fully agree his approach (which is now approach) is best. Somehow it seems to be me better to rest merrily in a making 5-4 club fit than to struggle going down in a 4-3 spade fit at the three level.

That is, 3m isn't a signoff... it is just non-forcing. Two completely different issues.

Ben

[gabika73]

I play it the same way. NF, INV.
I even play all 3level bids as NF (INV, of course).

2nt, however, is a forcing INV+ hand.
Opener now describes his holding:

3m: 3card major, 5card minor, minimum.
new suit below 3M: splinter (or fragment, your choice...) with 3card M
3M: minimum, 3-4card major.
3nt: maximum, 3card major.
4m: good side suit, maximum, 4card major.
new suit above 3M: splinter with 4card major.
4M: BAL, 4card major, maximum.

[jtfanclub]

I agree with Hrothgar (yeah, like he needs my support). I'm a little different in that my 2M bids tend to have 3 card support if I have a singleton. There's a number of reasons for this- it's less good for NT, ruffs with the hand with short trumps tend to be powerful things, and even playing in game with a 4-3 may not be a bad thing.

One thing you have to realize is that playng MPs, you often want to play in a worse major suit fit than a good minor suit fit. 2♥ making 3 is 140, 3♣ making 4 is 130. The minor suits are likely taking the same tricks whichever strain you're playing in, and it's nice to ruff tricks in the short hand.

Unlike most of the people here, I don't raise on three card support with 5332 or 4432 (I don't do it with 4333 either but I think I have lots of company on that). I play mostly MP games where the extra ten points from playing no trump is worth something. Maybe that's why I'm still Intermediate.

[luke warm]

well i *normally* agree with ben and richard, but this time not entirely... that's because it just depends on my shape and points... the reason is, i tend to rebid nt with balanced hands... since i open a weak nt, i've found it's good to rebid the correct # of nt to show my hand... now if i'm unbalanced (say 1354 or something), yeah i'd tend to raise 1H to 2H with a minimumish hand

edit: another point... with something like 3352 and a 15 count, 1nt might not be the worst mp contract to be in, maybe even occasionally outscoring 2M

[sceptic]

Hi Jilly,

I raise pard with 3 cards in majors at any opportunity, the only thing I will say is 99% they will be 3 very good ones, I may even on occasions support with AK only further on in the auction

I am no expert here, but I have had some good results and I am not sure I can remember the last real bad board I had doing that (or at least attributable to that on its owm, I usually screw up something else as well )

[mikestar]

I make this raise quite freely. With a singleton, always. With 4333, never. I generally raise with a doubleton unless my hand is particularly well suited for NT play (for example, my doubleton is Kx).

When in doubt strong trumps favor the raise. Also, the weaker the minor, the better the raise is.

[the hog]

Hi Jilly,
Bridge is a game for bidders. Getting the auction up to the 2 level as quickly as possible is always a plus. It also makes life difficult for those opponents who protect "with the law", (tnt).

There is a big difference when you protect if the opposition has a 7 card fit as opposed to an 8 card fit. Make life difficult for your opponents by keeping them guessing.

[luke warm]

well jilly, as you can see almost everyone says bid 2S... i don't

my thinking is, responder either has a hand with which to continue or she doesn't... if she does, 2 way ckback stayman is a nice treatment over 1nt (there are others, many posts on that)... the downside to 1nt is, we may not play in our 4/3 or 5/3 major, tho we'll always find it if responder has invitational strength... as for ron's argument about the 2 level, yeah it does have a preemptive effect... but so does 1D : 1H : 1nt where 1nt shows 15-17... maybe not as much, but it is there...

it's possible that one treatment is vastly superior to the other, but i doubt it... this is just a matter of philosophy, imo

[MickyB]

It was mentioned that with a 4432, you might choose a 1NT rebid at MPs because NT is worth 10 points more. I think this is wrong. If 1NT and 2M are making the same number of tricks, you want to be in NT at either form of scoring. If the major is making one more trick, you want to be in 2M at MPs, but at IMPs it is only 1 imp difference.

There are many situations where this is the case. It is often said that Forcing NT is a loser at MPs, but I suspect it loses more at IMPs because there is a downside (1NT may be the last making contract) but no upside (reaching 2M and taking a trick more). There are few hands where you should play in 3NT at MPs and 4M at IMPs, but many hands are bid this way.

[Fluffy]

Hi Kathryn!
I am the opposition, I do NEVER raise partner´s suit with 3 cards, but since you are looking for concepts for doing so I´ll give you a couple of tips:

Balanced hands belong to NT: if you have a 5 card minor, and 3 card suport on partner´s suit, you either have another 4 card suit, or you are balanced, if you are balanced you should rule out the minor rebid, balanced hands play better at NT contracts than minor, specially at match points.

The second tip is not to beleive everything that is wirtten here , raising with 3 card suit has its advantages, but not all that have been written here, and also some disadvantages:

-You have to investigate how many cards partner has when you are in the way to game, wich makes the trial bid responses difuse

-It makes the evaluation of your hand hard, should you invite with 4234 with 10 HCP after 1♣-1♠-2♠?

-It jamms your apreciation of the law of total tricks if opponents compete to the 3/4 level, ,amking harder dor you to make the right decision. (I myself don´t follow the law, but anyway knowing about 9th/10th trumps is something everyone considers while comepting at 3/4 level).

[jtfanclub]

MickyB, on Oct 8 2004, 05:57 AM, said:

It was mentioned that with a 4432, you might choose a 1NT rebid at MPs because NT is worth 10 points more. I think this is wrong. If 1NT and 2M are making the same number of tricks, you want to be in NT at either form of scoring. If the major is making one more trick, you want to be in 2M at MPs, but at IMPs it is only 1 imp difference.

The problem is that every once in a while 1NT will be down 3 while 2M is making....you'll end up with 20 HCP in two suits and they'll run the other two before you get in. It takes a lot of 10 point differences in IMPs to equal one 260 or 410 point difference. It only take one in MPs.

1NT forcing is the same issue. A majority of the time (I think), you're losing 10-30 points by playing in a suit contract. But you don't get body slammed like you do every once in a while at 1NT.

---

Do hands like these happen very often? Of course not. But when they do, you'll be happy to not be in 1NT. Like I said, I rebid 1NT with this, but I play MPs.

[Flame]

I think never supporting with a 3 cards is wrong.
The problem with it supporting 3 cards, is its hard to explain or teach it, much easier to explain that inorder to play in a suit we need 8 cards fit. So with players like my mom i dont even try to explain and just play her way unless its really a must to support a 3 card.
Also not every senario is the same, if you have 3154 2c rebid is ok, 3325 1nt is fine, but the worse is 3145 rebiding a 5 cards club suit especially a bad one doesnt do justice to the hand.

[inquiry]

Flame is absolutely correct... you should raise with three card support sometimes, but not always... I said in my initial reply that "(I) frequently raise with three card support"... By this I don't mean to suggest that I always raise with three card support. The hand has to be right. 4333 is generally not right, and not all 5332 are right either. But I will sometime raise with 6322 and 6331. And since this is a beginner intermediate thread, I will not even go to what I do with 3 card support and strong hands... but maybe in the advanced section I will start a thread and discuss those concepts.

But the key point, is when you are weak, don't be afraid to raise with three card support. It will simplify a lot of other auctions for you.

Ben

[joker_gib]

Fluffy, on Oct 8 2004, 06:01 AM, said:

Hi Karen!
I am the opposition, I do NEVER raise partner´s suit with 3 cards, but since you are looking for concepts for doing so I´ll give you a couple of tips:

Balanced hands belong to NT: if you have a 5 card minor, and 3 card suport on partner´s suit, you either have another 4 card suit, or you are balanced, if you are balanced you should rule out the minor rebid, balanced hands play better at NT contracts than minor, specially at match points.

The second tip is not to beleive everything that is wirtten here , raising with 3 card suit has its advantages, but not all that have been written here, and also some disadvantages:

-You have to investigate how many cards partner has when you are in the way to game, wich makes the trial bid responses difuse

-It makes the evaluation of your hand hard, should you invite with 4234 with 10 HCP after 1♣-1♠-2♠?

-It jamms your apreciation of the law of total tricks if opponents compete to the 3/4 level, ,amking harder dor you to make the right decision. (I myself don´t follow the law, but anyway knowing about 9th/10th trumps is something everyone considers while comepting at 3/4 level).

Totally agree and I NEVER (well nearly) fit my partner with 3 cards !

A fit is 8 cards and when partial contracts will play well in 7 cards fit, it is not the same for game or slam contracts !

When you are shortened in a 4-3 fit, the contracts are doomed most of the times !

If you always raise with 3 cards, you never know where you are !

[Flame]

joker_gib, on Oct 8 2004, 09:08 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Oct 8 2004, 06:01 AM, said:

Hi Karen!
I am the opposition, I do NEVER raise partner´s suit with 3 cards, but since you are looking for concepts for doing so I´ll give you a couple of tips:

Balanced hands belong to NT: if you have a 5 card minor, and 3 card suport on partner´s suit, you either have another 4 card suit, or you are balanced, if you are balanced you should rule out the minor rebid, balanced hands play better at NT contracts than minor, specially at match points.

The second tip is not to beleive everything that is wirtten here ,  raising with 3 card suit has its advantages, but not all that have been written here, and also some disadvantages:

-You have to investigate how many cards partner has when you are in the way to game, wich makes the trial bid responses difuse

-It makes the evaluation of your hand hard, should you invite with 4234 with 10 HCP after 1♣-1♠-2♠?

-It jamms your apreciation of the law of total tricks if opponents compete to the 3/4 level, ,amking harder dor you to make the right decision. (I myself don´t follow the law, but anyway knowing about 9th/10th trumps is something everyone considers while comepting at 3/4 level).

Totally agree and I NEVER (well nearly) fit my partner with 3 cards !

A fit is 8 cards and when partial contracts will play well in 7 cards fit, it is not the same for game or slam contracts !

When you are shortened in a 4-3 fit, the contracts are doomed most of the times !

If you always raise with 3 cards, you never know where you are !

Maybe you got it wrong, we dont get to games and definetly not to slams with 4-3 fits.

[jillybean]

inquiry, on Oct 8 2004, 05:46 AM, said:

... you should raise with three card support sometimes, but not always...

Thanks, thats clear.
I keep getting reminded there is no such word as 'never' or 'always' in this game.

[mr1303]

Ben mentioned whether 1C 1S 2S 3C should be forcing or not. Here's a hand that came up in a challenge the champs bidding competition:

---

The bidding went 1D 1H 2H 3D. If 3D is forcing, how should I bid on? 3H should definitely promise a 4th heart here, I reckon.