[Wayne_LV]

Between the 2 versions of BBO (Win, Web) there are 3 diff kinds of convention card formats:

1. Generic BBO
2. Full Disclosure
3. ACBL format

The Generic BBO format is a carryover from the days before the ACBL format was available

The FD card can only be created and maintained in the Win version. The creation and maintenance of the FD card is impossible. There are just too many combinations and continuations to define. If a lot of basic bids and continuations are not defined, the purpose of the FD card is defeated. I have personally spent literally hundreds of hours trying to complete FD cards for complex bidding systems and finally just gave up and scrapped all my efforts. Conceptually FD conv cards is a great idea, but the execution of the concept is extremely frustrating and I have yet to see one done complete and correctly. Further, since all the bid explanations are available to partner and opps alike, I have encounted strong opposition to the use of the FD convention card and on more than one occasion removed the FD card from use to pacify my opponents. It does appear to be cheating to those unfamiliar with the FD concept. The worst downside to the use of the FD card is it becomes a memory crutch that tends to inhibit the memorization of conventional bids.

The ACBL convention card format leaves much to be desired, BUT ........ it is the official ACBL format that is required for all ACBL sanctioned events.

Personally, I would like to see BBO eliminate all convention card formats except the ACBL format and provide a means to print a completed BBO ACBL convention card that could be used in live ACBL club games and tournaments.

[brian_m]

 Wayne_LV, on 2012-March-03, 09:40, said:

<...>


The FD card can only be created and maintained in the Win version. The creation and maintenance of the FD card is impossible. There are just too many combinations and continuations to define. If a lot of basic bids and continuations are not defined, the purpose of the FD card is defeated. I have personally spent literally hundreds of hours trying to complete FD cards for complex bidding systems and finally just gave up and scrapped all my efforts.

The one thing which would have made FD really workable is to have had it pick up explanations of undefined sequences automatically from the bidding box. Yes, there would have been a possible clash when each member of the partnership defines a bid in a different way. In that case, first definition counts.

 Wayne_LV, on 2012-March-03, 09:40, said:

Conceptually FD conv cards is a great idea, but the execution of the concept is extremely frustrating and I have yet to see one done complete and correctly. Further, since all the bid explanations are available to partner and opps alike, I have encounted strong opposition to the use of the FD convention card and on more than one occasion removed the FD card from use to pacify my opponents. It does appear to be cheating to those unfamiliar with the FD concept. The worst downside to the use of the FD card is it becomes a memory crutch that tends to inhibit the memorization of conventional bids.

Such opponents are being rather naive, IMO. If people are going to use their FD CCs as aide memoires, there is nothing to stop them using a file on their computer in the same way. There is a setting in FD to turn off explanations of your partner's bids. That box should be removed, and the option to display FD explanations of your partner's bids disabled.

 Wayne_LV, on 2012-March-03, 09:40, said:

The ACBL convention card format leaves much to be desired, BUT ........ it is the official ACBL format that is required for all ACBL sanctioned events.

Personally, I would like to see BBO eliminate all convention card formats except the ACBL format and provide a means to print a completed BBO ACBL convention card that could be used in live ACBL club games and tournaments.

I'm sure I speak for many other non-Americans when I say that I don't see why the ACBL's opinions should hold sway.

*IF* FD is to be replaced, or even just removed, then we need some method of automating explanations. Those of us who play something a little unusual need a way of cutting down the typing - and whether it's FD or cut/paste from a text file or keystroke macros, there's going to be an element of memory assistance. This seems to me to be a small price to pay for making the game flow at a reasonable rate.

[barmar]

 Wayne_LV, on 2012-March-03, 09:40, said:

Personally, I would like to see BBO eliminate all convention card formats except the ACBL format and provide a means to print a completed BBO ACBL convention card that could be used in live ACBL club games and tournaments.

That would really screw the players who have a large collection of CC's from before BBO added the ACBL format.

[Zelandakh]

I personally like the FD CCs alot. The problem I ran into is that there is a size limitation but the system does not tell you when you have reached it. If your FD CC file is too large then you receive the message that it is being and see the descriptions but noone else at the table does. As far as I know this limitation is only an issue for relay systems although if you typed in the meaning of every bid in a natural system, including competition, then I daresay you could reach it too.

[brian_m]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-March-07, 10:15, said:

I personally like the FD CCs alot. The problem I ran into is that there is a size limitation but the system does not tell you when you have reached it. If your FD CC file is too large then you receive the message that it is being and see the descriptions but noone else at the table does. As far as I know this limitation is only an issue for relay systems although if you typed in the meaning of every bid in a natural system, including competition, then I daresay you could reach it too.

Do you have any indication as to what this limit is? No, I don't play a relay system, but we've got a lot of asking bids plus openers that vary by seat and vulnerability.

[A2003]

 brian_m, on 2012-March-08, 08:35, said:

Do you have any indication as to what this limit is? No, I don't play a relay system, but we've got a lot of asking bids plus openers that vary by seat and vulnerability.

1MB

[FrancesHinden]

 Wayne_LV, on 2012-March-03, 09:40, said:

Personally, I would like to see BBO eliminate all convention card formats except the ACBL format and provide a means to print a completed BBO ACBL convention card that could be used in live ACBL club games and tournaments.

If BBO were to hold themselves to exactly on format, it should be the WBF one.

Or maybe it should be the ACBL one, and all non-ACBL members should be banned, that might be simpler.

[Wayne_LV]

 FrancesHinden, on 2012-March-11, 11:46, said:

If BBO were to hold themselves to exactly on format, it should be the WBF one.

Or maybe it should be the ACBL one, and all non-ACBL members should be banned, that might be simpler.

Not even remotely suggesting anyone be banned. ACBL is the governing body for all Master Points awarded in BBO Tournaments so it make sense their convention card format be used, no?

[hrothgar]

 Wayne_LV, on 2013-February-05, 16:31, said:

Not even remotely suggesting anyone be banned. ACBL is the governing body for all Master Points awarded in BBO Tournaments so it make sense their convention card format be used, no?

No, the ACBL is most certainly NOT the governing body for all Master Points awarded in BBO tournaments.
Even if it were, not all tournaments award master points.

[Wayne_LV]

 hrothgar, on 2013-February-05, 17:04, said:

No, the ACBL is most certainly NOT the governing body for all Master Points awarded in BBO tournaments.
Even if it were, not all tournaments award master points.

To the best of my knowledge ACBL Master Points are only awarded at ACBL sanctioned games, online or F2F. BBO points are not the same as ACBL Master Points.

[hrothgar]

 Wayne_LV, on 2013-February-05, 18:23, said:

To the best of my knowledge ACBL Master Points are only awarded at ACBL sanctioned games, online or F2F. BBO points are not the same as ACBL Master Points.

You might want to look at your original post...
You know, the one where you talked about "Master Points" rather than "ACBL Master Points"

What makes this particularly delicious is that this came up in a post where you are (supposedly) defending yourself against critiques that your obsessively focused on the ACBL members rather than BBOs more cosmopolitan membership base...

[Wayne_LV]

 hrothgar, on 2013-February-05, 18:32, said:

You might want to look at your original post...
You know, the one where you talked about "Master Points" rather than "ACBL Master Points"

What makes this particularly delicious is that this came up in a post where you are (supposedly) defending yourself against critiques that your obsessively focused on the ACBL members rather than BBOs more cosmopolitan membership base...

BBO points are not Masters Points in the true sense of the word. BBO only awards BBO points and ACBL Master points. I don't think BBO can award WBF Master Points, at least not yet. Besides, the intent of my original post was suggest that fewer kinds of Convention cards used by BBO might be a good thing. It is really a moot point since only a small fraction of BBO players ever create a convention card of any kind. Sorry I brought it up.

[hrothgar]

 Wayne_LV, on 2013-February-05, 19:28, said:

BBO points are not Masters Points in the true sense of the word. BBO only awards BBO points and ACBL Master points.

You really might want to look at the verbiage that BBO uses...

I am looking at a screen right now that displays

"Leaderboards BBO MAsterpoints"
"Leaderboards ACBL Masterpoints"

[Cthulhu D]

With the FD cards who cares if the entire thing is fully defined? You really only need the opening, responses, and maybe opener's rebid to give 95% of the benefit to opposition.

[Wayne_LV]

 hrothgar, on 2013-February-05, 19:40, said:

You really might want to look at the verbiage that BBO uses...

I am looking at a screen right now that displays

"Leaderboards BBO MAsterpoints"
"Leaderboards ACBL Masterpoints"

As I already said: SORRY I BROUGHT IT UP!!!

[barmar]

 Wayne_LV, on 2012-March-03, 09:40, said:

Personally, I would like to see BBO eliminate all convention card formats except the ACBL format and provide a means to print a completed BBO ACBL convention card that could be used in live ACBL club games and tournaments.

And what are we supposed to do with all the old convention cards that people have created? Force them to rewrite them or lose them?

Without seriously inconveniencing players, the most we could do is prevent them from creating new CCs in other formats.

[paulg]

 Wayne_LV, on 2012-March-03, 09:40, said:

Personally, I would like to see BBO eliminate all convention card formats except the ACBL format and provide a means to print a completed BBO ACBL convention card that could be used in live ACBL club games and tournaments.

 barmar, on 2013-February-06, 12:47, said:

And what are we supposed to do with all the old convention cards that people have created? Force them to rewrite them or lose them?

Without seriously inconveniencing players, the most we could do is prevent them from creating new CCs in other formats.

I see from EBU minutes that they are in discussion with BBO and I'd guess that licensing tournaments and awarding masterpoints are part of the talks. I would not be surprised if other NBOs are in similar discussions and you can imagine that there may be requests for even more CCs.

Just a thought