[Balrog49]

The opponents, a pickup partnership, had the following disaster:

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Opener won the diamond lead, drew two rounds of trumps, and ran the clubs until someone ruffed with the queen. Making five for a zero.

If I remember correctly, a new minor on the three level is forcing for one round without prior agreement. Is that correct? Does anyone play it as forcing to game?

[ahydra]

I would play 3C here as GF (edit: actually forcing 1 round, I missed that east is a passed hand - surely he should open?). But to be honest, 2H is wimpish - I would bid 4H.

6C looks more appealing than 4H for the final contract (except on a diamond lead) - but I have no idea how you'd get there.

ahydra

[billw55]

One problem is that east has few bids that are forcing at all, never mind game forcing, after his original pass.

I would definitely open with the east hand. No way west can ever think east has this much after the pass.

[mikeh]

I think most players would open the East hand quite happily, knowing that East can give a very good description by bidding 1♣ and, almost certainly, rebidding 1♠ and then 2♠ to show 5=6 blacks (in standard methods). The hand is far more powerful than its point count....it has a Losing Trick Count of only 5! And it has 3 controls (A=2, K=1) and controls are undervalued by the 4321 count. Add to that that the honours are combined, and that there are good spots in spades and easy rebids, and opening becomes clear.

Responder will drive to game, but will devalue the hand, for slam purposes, once opener shows his shape. I'd expect responder to eventually opt for a 4♥ call, willing to play there opposite a void if need be.

As it is, I think opener should at some point reveal his extra playing strength...I don't have any problem with the 2♥ rebid, given that partner's 1♠ didn't exactly hit our values, but once responder shows some strength via 3♣, opener should bid 4♥.

3♣ was definitely NOT gf.....there is no way that responder can 'force' to game having passed, but it should be a 1 round force in my opinion...with a lesser hand, he just sucks it up and passes 2♥ rather than flailing around to try to improve the contract.

Note that E could have and should have bid 2♣ if they are not playing drury....he'd bid 2♣ then 2♠ and show something of his shape while keeping the bidding a little lower. However, most good pairs play some varinat of drury and so I would expect the vast majority to choose 1♠ had they found themselves passing as dealer

[rmnka447]

I would have rebid 4 ♥ instead of 2 ♥.

But in the actual auction after responder takes a second bid, I think 4 ♥ is definitely required. West knows where he wants to play the hand (What do you call a 7 card suit? TRUMP). East has shown about 9-11 value, so game has a reasonable chance of success.

I agree with others that East has an opener (Rule of 20 with 2 QTs) -- even more so because the hand holds ♠s which are quite often useful when both sides are competing for the contract. I think 1 ♣ is right with this hand because the spades are so anemic.

[the hog]

East should open the bidding.
The 2H bid is fine; 4H is the bid of a butcher.
After 3C West should surely bid 4H.

[nigel_k]

West 75%. I would have opened with East but West's 3♥ instead of 4♥ was the worst call and contributed most directly to the bad result.

A new suit at the three level by responder is forcing to game, except that by a passed hand it is a one round force only.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

new suits at the 3 level are forcing to game, that being said East is a passed hand, i.e. East
cant set up a gameforce, when his partner showed a min opener.

In the end, this is a perfect fit, no wastage, and I would not worry too much about missing game
here, putting it at 50 - 50.

Most would reach game, because, they would not bid 3H, but change the Queen of clubs to a jack,
make the jack of spades a Queen, the bidding would go similar, and you are happe to stay out of game,
at least plaing MP ... which I assume, since you talked about getting a "zero".


With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

blablabla you can make decisions with West's hand if you want, but they are that: decisions.

East on the other hand made a missbid, he passed a forcing sequence. You can't compare a missbid with a decision. East is 100% to blame.

New suit over first suit rebid (above 2♠ after 1♠ first round) shows extras, this is true for opener and responder, in responder's context it shows GF values.

[MrAce]

1♥--1♠
4♥

Thats how i play it, it means i have extra on the side that made me not open 4♥, but not good enough to bid 3♥.

If i start 2♥, which is also very reasonable imo, then i would bid 4♥ over 3♣

[dwar0123]

Fluffy, on 2012-October-16, 03:54, said:

blablabla you can make decisions with West's hand if you want, but they are that: decisions.

East on the other hand made a missbid, he passed a forcing sequence. You can't compare a missbid with a decision. East is 100% to blame.

New suit over first suit rebid (above 2♠ after 1♠ first round) shows extras, this is true for opener and responder, in responder's context it shows GF values.

Little confused, are you saying the 3♣ created a gf that west assumed was true when he bid 3♥ fully expecting his partner to bid again?

Can a passed hand create a gf when partner has merely rebid their suit at the 2 level?

[Cyberyeti]

dwar0123, on 2012-October-16, 11:37, said:

Little confused, are you saying the 3♣ created a gf that west assumed was true when he bid 3♥ fully expecting his partner to bid again?

Can a passed hand create a gf when partner has merely rebid their suit at the 2 level?

3♣ said "I forgot to open" when it was bid, but should actually mean "shut up, I have a 4027/4018 5 count" as it's non-sensical to create a GF opposite a simple rebid of partner's suit.

Easy 1♣ opener but that's not really the cause.

Opener should realise 3♥ is NF opposite a passed hand.

About 70% blame to opener, 80% to his partner

[lalldonn]

East should open, west should bid 4♥ not 3♥. I don't view those mistakes as very different from each other so to me it's 50-50. I don't blame east for passing 3♥. If I was stuck in that position I wouldn't expect 4♥ to make either.

[PhilKing]

East's bidding is a joke, although I agree with his final pass. But West had a few chances to bid game.

I would just open 4♥ opposite a passed hand, intending to double any opposition action.

[billw55]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-16, 12:39, said:

East's bidding is a joke, although I agree with his final pass.But West had a few chances to bid game.

I would just open 4♥ opposite a passed hand, intending to double any opposition action.

I can accept opening 4♥, but doubling ops below slam, opposite a silent partner, would be highly optimistic.

[PhilKing]

billw55, on 2012-October-16, 12:43, said:

I can accept opening 4♥, but doubling ops below slam, opposite a silent partner, would be highly optimistic.

Two-way double. Bit of a punt, but I've looked at a lot of these hands, and I think it's right to try and make the auto Four Spade overcallers pay. Partner generally can't double even with spades, since he does not know we have two bangers.

Make them guess, then make them pay.

[neilkaz]

East's hand is a fabulous 10 count and sometimes takes 8 tricks with a black suit as trump so any east with a pulse opens these nowadays.

3♣ after passing isn't GF so West should just bid 4♥ rather than 3♥.