[billw55]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-02, 15:59, said:

Agreed, we have this arrangement AND document it on our convention card.

Wonderful, I have no problem with this. Why then does asker break tempo before bidding 5 trump? What does the bid of 5 trump actually mean? If bidding on with 4 keys is so obvious, then shouldn't 5 trump be equally well defined? (I cannot believe that asker does not know whether responder holds 1 or 4 keys.) What different meaning might hesitate-then-5-trump carry?

If 5 trump is obviously forcing on a hand holding 4 keys, then maybe we should adjust against passers, as someone mentioned. What an interesting situation.

[gwnn]

 billw55, on 2013-September-03, 07:41, said:

What different meaning might hesitate-then-5-trump carry?

From personal experience: I sometimes need to check my algebra (sorry, not a joke, unfortunately I managed to miscount keycards once and was close to doing so a few times) whether the total # of keycards is at least 4. It could also be that you just stopped because you expected partner to have at least 3 and first you think he has 1, then you realise that he probably has 4. One final scenario: you know he has 4 but you're wondering whether you need to bid 5NT or 5M to go on (note that just bidding 6M is very lazy, you should at least bid step 1, but most people answer to a fictitious queen ask or spiral ask).

[mycroft]

So, in my world, it depends. I had one of these a week ago, and I thought that raising on 3 was a bit iffy after a hesitation, because opener's opener was 2NT. Partner could really have had zero key cards...

1/4 is a different question, as I have a metarule that "we never stop in 5 missing one KC" - if it was wrong, it was keycarding that was wrong, not being in slam.

I think there's a point where "partner can't have the lower number". If you have an agreement that you will *always* go with the higher number (even 3 after 2NT-4♦; 4♥-4NT; 5x-5♥), fine (I'd hate to decide what to do with that aceless big-trump hand, though). If you don't, I think after hesitation-5, if you "can't have" the lower number, you can't bid 6.

[Cyberyeti]

 billw55, on 2013-September-03, 07:41, said:

Wonderful, I have no problem with this. Why then does asker break tempo before bidding 5 trump? What does the bid of 5 trump actually mean? If bidding on with 4 keys is so obvious, then shouldn't 5 trump be equally well defined? (I cannot believe that asker does not know whether responder holds 1 or 4 keys.) What different meaning might hesitate-then-5-trump carry?

If 5 trump is obviously forcing on a hand holding 4 keys, then maybe we should adjust against passers, as someone mentioned. What an interesting situation.

We haven't passed yet in 15 years in the situation where we have the higher number.

The only times we've had hesitations, it's usually one of two things:

A contested auction where we're trying to remember which of DOP1/DOPE/ROP1/ROPE/DEPO/REPO we're playing (varies with different partners) so the ambiguity is a little different, but it's essentially the same problem.

A situation where we need to establish what we need to know for a grand, so whether we want to sign off and let partner bid a king (usually the case), or whether we want to bid a new suit ourselves or bid 5N, basically planning the remainder of the auction.

[barmar]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-03, 04:05, said:

Most likely to occur in one of those auctions where it's possible that partners think they've agreed different suits, so partner has shown the wrong K as an ace. Also in an "is it kickback" situation.

Kamil-Fleisher had one of these accidents in this month's Bidding Box (the ACBL Bulletin equivalent of BW's Challenge the Champs), ending up in 7NT for a cold bottom.

[billw55]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-03, 09:37, said:

We haven't passed yet in 15 years in the situation where we have the higher number.

The only times we've had hesitations, it's usually one of two things:

A contested auction where we're trying to remember which of DOP1/DOPE/ROP1/ROPE/DEPO/REPO we're playing (varies with different partners) so the ambiguity is a little different, but it's essentially the same problem.

A situation where we need to establish what we need to know for a grand, so whether we want to sign off and let partner bid a king (usually the case), or whether we want to bid a new suit ourselves or bid 5N, basically planning the remainder of the auction.

OK interesting, thanks.

Now, let's say neither of these is the case. Just an ordinary uncontested keycard auction, no doubt about the trump suit, or whether we have in fact bid keycard. What is the default meaning of a bid of 5 trump? For the sake of argument, let's say 2♣-2♦-2♥-4NT-5♣-5♥, and now ops ask. You seem to consider this situation routine. What do you tell them?

[Cyberyeti]

 billw55, on 2013-September-03, 14:06, said:

OK interesting, thanks.

Now, let's say neither of these is the case. Just an ordinary uncontested keycard auction, no doubt about the trump suit, or whether we have in fact bid keycard. What is the default meaning of a bid of 5 trump? For the sake of argument, let's say 2♣-2♦-2♥-4NT-5♣-5♥, and now ops ask. You seem to consider this situation routine. What do you tell them?

5♣ is 0/3 for us so we say signoff opposite 0. We might add in this particular auction that responder will often have Q♥ here as it is most likely that opener has 3 controls and responder might well guess to ask for the Q if he's not looking at it.

[billw55]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-03, 14:22, said:

5♣ is 0/3 for us so we say signoff opposite 0. We might add in this particular auction that responder will often have Q♥ here as it is most likely that opener has 3 controls and responder might well guess to ask for the Q if he's not looking at it.

Yes, I expected it would be a signoff opposite 3 keys. What I really meant was, opposite a response showing 4 keys.

[Cyberyeti]

 billw55, on 2013-September-03, 14:29, said:

Yes, I expected it would be a signoff opposite 3 keys. What I really meant was, opposite a response showing 4 keys.

You miss the point, what we say is "Signoff opposite the lower number" partner WILL bid on with 3 in the 0/3 scenario and 4 in the 1/4 scenario.

[billw55]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-03, 16:31, said:

You miss the point, what we say is "Signoff opposite the lower number" partner WILL bid on with 3 in the 0/3 scenario and 4 in the 1/4 scenario.

Yes, I misunderstood.

[Zelandakh]

 billw55, on 2013-September-03, 14:06, said:

What is the default meaning of a bid of 5 trump?

The default meaning according to the RKCB "bible" is a conditional queen ask. That is, partner passes with the lower number of key cards and responds as if to a queen ask with the higher number. Many pairs have the agreement that a hand responding to RKCB with 4 key cards never passes 5 of the trump suit and for these pass is absolutely not a LA.