[Lovera]

What is the bidding by N-S and W-E ? How high is possible to get?

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Dealer West. N-S red, E-W white

[LBengtsson]

Lovera, on 2018-July-17, 14:46, said:

What is the bidding by N-S and W-E ? How high is possible to get?

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Dealer West. N-S red, E-W white

N/S do not beyond 4♥, E/W in contract of 5♠ or 6♠

[Lovera]

LBengtsson, on 2018-July-17, 15:29, said:

N/S do not beyond 4♥, E/W in contract of 5♠ or 6♠

I need to know the biddings by all players (than also defensive bids how can be obstructive) starting by West (that probably is "pass"),North ? and so on, thanks.

[FelicityR]

At this vulnerability, I can only surmise that the auction might go

P - P - 1♠ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♥ - 5♣ - P
5♦ - P - 5♥…

...then East-West have to decide whether a small slam is on the cards, or whether to stop in 5♠. This might depend on whether South doubles 5♥ - a bad decision as he/she is on lead anyway, and allows an extra round of bidding, or whether West feels lucky with his/her limit raise.

The auction from where I am sitting looks quite standard. South vulnerable is not worth more than 3♥. North even at this vulnerability by the Law of Total tricks feels obliged to bid 4♥ then East/West cue bid towards slam..

I think at this point West has to take the bull by the horns and recognise that his/her partner would not have made a move towards slam without some top controls in the black suits, and a ♥ void - this is not guaranteed but any good partnership should have some understanding of slam bidding against obstruction. With both the ♦ AK and the ♠Q West should then bid 6♠.

Am I being too ambitious here? Please enlighten me!

[ahydra]

FelicityR, on 2018-July-17, 21:59, said:

At this vulnerability, I can only surmise that the auction might go

P - P - 1♠ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♥ - 5♣ - P
5♦ - P - 5♥…

...then East-West have to decide whether a small slam is on the cards, or whether to stop in 5♠. This might depend on whether South doubles 5♥ - a bad decision as he/she is on lead anyway, and allows an extra round of bidding, or whether West feels lucky with his/her limit raise.

The auction from where I am sitting looks quite standard. South vulnerable is not worth more than 3♥. North even at this vulnerability by the Law of Total tricks feels obliged to bid 4♥ then East/West cue bid towards slam..

I think at this point West has to take the bull by the horns and recognise that his/her partner would not have made a move towards slam without some top controls in the black suits, and a ♥ void - this is not guaranteed but any good partnership should have some understanding of slam bidding against obstruction. With both the ♦ AK and the ♠Q West should then bid 6♠.

Am I being too ambitious here? Please enlighten me!

Not ambitious enough, as clearly one would drop the ♣K offside to make 7S

I would bid the same way, except maybe 2H by S over which West bids 3H (3-card INV+ raise) and the rest is unchanged. 5H should definitely be a first-round heart control. Over 5H I would consider bidding 5NT with West: as a passed hand we can't get much better than this double-fit with no heart wastage and great diamond controls. East shouldn't accept the grand slam try though, he has a minimum for the bidding so far (consider that he could also have the SQJ, some D honours, CK, etc - and he knows that West, as a passed hand, can't have SQ DAK CK).

NS have an easy 7HX sac at favourable, and possibly at equal vul if matchpoints and they trust the field to back them up, but at unfavourable it's completely out of the question.

ahydra

[Lovera]

ahydra, on 2018-July-17, 23:43, said:

Not ambitious enough, as clearly one would drop the ♣K offside to make 7S

I would bid the same way, except maybe 2H by S over which West bids 3H (3-card INV+ raise) and the rest is unchanged. 5H should definitely be a first-round heart control. Over 5H I would consider bidding 5NT with West: as a passed hand we can't get much better than this double-fit with no heart wastage and great diamond controls. East shouldn't accept the grand slam try though, he has a minimum for the bidding so far (consider that he could also have the SQJ, some D honours, CK, etc - and he knows that West, as a passed hand, can't have SQ DAK CK).

NS have an easy 7HX sac at favourable, and possibly at equal vul if matchpoints and they trust the field to back them up, but at unfavourable it's completely out of the question.

ahydra

In the bidding indicated for this hand W choised to double(=TOX neg.ve instead of 3♥) but why this 2♥ bid by S ? Is not better 3♥ showing longness ?
About stiff club K to drop i think that can be it made (if N shows its hand weak).

[msjennifer]

EW **6SNS—7Hx

[dokoko]

After p-p-1♠-4♥ it's not so easy for EW.

[Lovera]

FelicityR, on 2018-July-17, 21:59, said:

At this vulnerability, I can only surmise that the auction might go

P - P - 1♠ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♥ - 5♣ - P
5♦ - P - 5♥…

...then East-West have to decide whether a small slam is on the cards, or whether to stop in 5♠. This might depend on whether South doubles 5♥ - a bad decision as he/she is on lead anyway, and allows an extra round of bidding, or whether West feels lucky with his/her limit raise.

The auction from where I am sitting looks quite standard. South vulnerable is not worth more than 3♥. North even at this vulnerability by the Law of Total tricks feels obliged to bid 4♥ then East/West cue bid towards slam..

I think at this point West has to take the bull by the horns and recognise that his/her partner would not have made a move towards slam without some top controls in the black suits, and a ♥ void - this is not guaranteed but any good partnership should have some understanding of slam bidding against obstruction. With both the ♦ AK and the ♠Q West should then bid 6♠.

Am I being too ambitious here? Please enlighten me!

When E moves to slam initiating a right cue sequence probably is already high (E needs to know if the xx in diamond suit are covered but this one has to do enter five level where you can realize if slam (that is factible also with the second fit in club to discover) there is or not .

[pescetom]

ahydra, on 2018-July-17, 23:43, said:

I would bid the same way, except maybe 2H by S over which West bids 3H (3-card INV+ raise) and the rest is unchanged. 5H should definitely be a first-round heart control. Over 5H I would consider bidding 5NT with West: as a passed hand we can't get much better than this double-fit with no heart wastage and great diamond controls.

I would bid the same way as ahydra up to 5♥.
For us 5NT is not available as natural but would show even keycards, thus 6♦ will not just deny K♣ but also deny A♥, not essential here anyway. East will stop in 6♠ as he didn't have space to ascertain trump Q and knows K♣ is probably in S.

[Lovera]

pescetom, on 2018-July-18, 11:23, said:

I would bid the same way as ahydra up to 5♥.
For us 5NT is not available as natural but would show even keycards, thus 6♦ will not just deny K♣ but also deny A♥, not essential here anyway. East will stop in 6♠ as he didn't have space to ascertain trump Q and knows K♣ is probably in S.

Hi, may you tell me your bid sequence after p-p-1♠ by E (from here all agree) ? Perhaps can be a way to know about spade Queen.

[dsLawsd]

This looks like a game of "chicken" after 1S. The reason North should consider bidding 4 H is looking at xxx partner won't have many spades. It is a risk but we are trying to have E-W make the final guess. If E-W doesn't find the extra club fit, it will be harder to venture slam.
Now, if only my opponents didn't guess correctly so often.

[wank]

anyone suggesting south should bid 4h at adverse vul is resulting. when lho has passed and you've got a chance for 3 defensive tricks in your own hand, you don't offer up a possible 1400, just in case RHO has 11 black cards and LHO has a max pass with the perfect honours. 3H would be on the sporting side.

[HardVector]

wank, on 2018-July-18, 19:49, said:

anyone suggesting south should bid 4h at adverse vul is resulting. when lho has passed and you've got a chance for 3 defensive tricks in your own hand, you don't offer up a possible 1400, just in case RHO has 11 black cards and LHO has a max pass with the perfect honours. 3H would be on the sporting side.

I have to agree with this. Looking at 3 fast spade losers and no indicator that they actually have a fit, bidding 4h is a complete flyer. That being said, partner IS a passed hand, so you know you don't have a game, so I would bid 3h. West is barely worth a 3s bid, then partner looking at 0 defensive tricks should elevate it to 5h immediately. That would make getting to 6s extremely difficult.

[Lovera]

I think that dokoko's 4♥ (double jump interference) was made more viewing at AKJ9432 in heart suit (that although not seems to me much comparable with KQJ10943) trying to be much obstructive (but also for partner). I too, looking at losers, retain that 3♥(=6-7th) can be right.

[rmnka447]

I agree that

(P) - P - 1 ♠ - 3 ♥
3 ♠ - ?

seems obvious, although an aggressive responder might choose to show limit+ by bidding 4 ♥.

South has a key decision to make by deciding how high to raise ♥, if at all, after a 3 ♠ bid.

How many tricks does South expect to take on defense? Well, if preemptor has 7+ ♥, then there are 11+ plus ♥ and South's side will take at most 1 ♥. South's hand might conceivably get 1 trick out of ♦, but that's far from certain. But even if you assume that trick comes home, it would be difficult to expect that preemptor has 2 more defensive tricks outside of ♥. So it looks like 4 ♠ is almost a lock to make and you are unlikely to deter the opponents from getting to 4 ♠ by bidding 4 ♥. If there are no ♥ losers and the tenuous ♦ trick is a myth, then the opponents may be cold for 6 ♠.

Tactically, South has to decide what action is most likely to make it most difficult for the opponents to find their optimum spot. I can see 4 possible choices Pass, 4 ♥, 4 ♠, or 5 ♥.

Pass is an under-preempt that may muddy the waters somewhat by not showing the ♥ fit. OTOH, it leaves the most space for the opponents to explore game/slam.

4 ♥ as previously stated certainly won't stop 4 ♠, but might work well against lesser players who might not double when you take the push to 5 ♥, might not bid 5 ♠, and may not explore for slam.

4 ♠ is a possibility for a couple reasons. It pushes the opponents to 5 ♠ and alerts preemptor that you have some sort of ♠ feature. This may be useful if the opponents bid slam. It might confuse the opponents as to the extent of their values. But it does leave some space for opener or responder to show some minor values.

5 ♥ gets to the maximum level you're willing to push to immediately. It also puts the opponents to a decision immediately without any knowledge other than the ♠ fit. OTOH, it is possible that it may push an opponent to bid slam because of your expressed weakness.

I'd probably bid 5 ♥ at the table because there may be some uncertainty about minor holdings making it difficult for the opponents to push on over 5 ♠.

[Winstonm]

I guess like this:

P-P-1S-2H
3H-4H-5C-P
5D-P-5H-P
5S-P-P-P


I think East rightly settles for 5 with the risk from his POV of 2 club losers.

[Lovera]

Winstonm, on 2018-July-20, 15:00, said:

I guess like this:

P-P-1S-2H
3H-4H-5C-P
5D-P-5H-P
5S-P-P-P


I think East rightly settles for 5 with the risk from his POV of 2 club losers.

If W shows support and HCP with 3♥ then after 4♥ by N why not 4NT(=RKB) by E ? The bidding will be (5♥)- pass(=DOPI 1 keyc. ♦A) by W-(pass), X(=?Queen)-(pass)-6♦(=♠Q+♦K) and the losers are covered for slam.

[Lovera]

In this hand there is a second suit that play(=club) and that can be discovered more easy if the bidding is "low" as previously i said (i.e. ...S (2♥) - X - (3♥) - 4♣ by E, (..)) but if so opp can defend more conveniently too.

[Lovera]

rmnka447, on 2018-July-20, 14:27, said:

I agree that

(P) - P - 1 ♠ - 3 ♥
3 ♠ - ?

seems obvious, although an aggressive responder might choose to show limit+ by bidding 4 ♥.

South has a key decision to make by deciding how high to raise ♥, if at all, after a 3 ♠ bid.

How many tricks does South expect to take on defense? Well, if preemptor has 7+ ♥, then there are 11+ plus ♥ and South's side will take at most 1 ♥. South's hand might conceivably get 1 trick out of ♦, but that's far from certain. But even if you assume that trick comes home, it would be difficult to expect that preemptor has 2 more defensive tricks outside of ♥. So it looks like 4 ♠ is almost a lock to make and you are unlikely to deter the opponents from getting to 4 ♠ by bidding 4 ♥. If there are no ♥ losers and the tenuous ♦ trick is a myth, then the opponents may be cold for 6 ♠.

Tactically, South has to decide what action is most likely to make it most difficult for the opponents to find their optimum spot. I can see 4 possible choices Pass, 4 ♥, 4 ♠, or 5 ♥.

Pass is an under-preempt that may muddy the waters somewhat by not showing the ♥ fit. OTOH, it leaves the most space for the opponents to explore game/slam.

4 ♥ as previously stated certainly won't stop 4 ♠, but might work well against lesser players who might not double when you take the push to 5 ♥, might not bid 5 ♠, and may not explore for slam.

4 ♠ is a possibility for a couple reasons. It pushes the opponents to 5 ♠ and alerts preemptor that you have some sort of ♠ feature. This may be useful if the opponents bid slam. It might confuse the opponents as to the extent of their values. But it does leave some space for opener or responder to show some minor values.

5 ♥ gets to the maximum level you're willing to push to immediately. It also puts the opponents to a decision immediately without any knowledge other than the ♠ fit. OTOH, it is possible that it may push an opponent to bid slam because of your expressed weakness.

I'd probably bid 5 ♥ at the table because there may be some uncertainty about minor holdings making it difficult for the opponents to push on over 5 ♠.

Interesting and extensive. With that hand N knows about 11 card fit in heart and in this case is able to bid 5♥ showing in this way also 1 loser max in spade suit. The 4♠ bid seems like a Michaels cue that i have not thought.