[clons]

Hi All,

Sorry, new to the forum I was playing a hand which had a few interesting things happen and wanted to see if someone could share some insight into what the bidding was and the thinking process at the critical trick which was trick 6.

Question: Should West have doubled instead of bidding 1H overcall? with singleton points are 9HCP + 3 singleton. do you downgrade to 8HCP + 3 (ie not enough for X) and therefore bid your 5 card overcall?

Interesting thing #1: What convention is the 2S limit raise? All the other auctions for this hand used the 2H cue bid limit raise. It appears as some sort of inverted major however I read those are typically used as an alternative to drury. Any thoughts or direction to where I can read more about this type of bidding response.

Interesting thing #2: at trick 6, what does declarer lead and why? It would be best if someone who responded played it with closed hands and explained reasoning at trick 6. Double dummy makes it easy to figure out what do do next. Thanks for your help all!

What does south play next?

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This post has been edited by clons: 2020-September-12, 07:11

[Cyberyeti]

He ruffs his heart then exits a club, later taking the diamond finesse. I'd have ruffed the heart after one high trump (E surely has 3 for his raise) and then used dummy's 3rd trump to return to hand so I make the overtrick if E has ♦109.

[FelicityR]

Welcome to the forum.

I would never contemplate bidding 2♥ as West vulnerable especially after partner's passed, and even if partner has yet to bid.

I have never come across the limit 2♠ raise (10-12) [though probably someone on these forums has], but we do use a constructive 2♠ raise (8-11 3♠s) however we never use that when the opponents intervene.

As for the play, exactly as Cyberyeti has answered.

[mikeh]

I think that the great majority of experts would take no bid with the west hand. No aces. A short, weak suit in hearts. The likely worthless (more so offensively than defensively) spade Jack. Vulnerable v not vulnerable. I wouldn’t bid even white v red, but I’m a fairly conservative bidder.

As for 2S being limit, that strikes me as extremely unusual. The north hand is borderline for a limit raise so maybe the OP misunderstood but, otoh , the south hand Has no business bidding game unless partner has shown a limit raise.

The play was poor. As Cyber noted, the correct line is to cash only one trump before ruffing the heart, but the error was extremely unlikely to cost, and at most would cost an improbable overtrick. As for the thinking at trick 6, what else but exit a club is even possible? Play to drop the singleton diamond King? Makes zero sense.

[clons]

mikeh, on 2020-September-12, 08:05, said:

I think that the great majority of experts would take no bid with the west hand. No aces. A short, weak suit in hearts. The likely worthless (more so offensively than defensively) spade Jack. Vulnerable v not vulnerable. I wouldn’t bid even white v red, but I’m a fairly conservative bidder.

As for 2S being limit, that strikes me as extremely unusual. The north hand is borderline for a limit raise so maybe the OP misunderstood but, otoh , the south hand Has no business bidding game unless partner has shown a limit raise.

The play was poor. As Cyber noted, the correct line is to cash only one trump before ruffing the heart, but the error was extremely unlikely to cost, and at most would cost an improbable overtrick. As for the thinking at trick 6, what else but exit a club is even possible? Play to drop the singleton diamond King? Makes zero sense.

Ok, so you all have uncovered another nuance.

If you ruff the heart at trick 6 and then exit a club. With a diamond lead from East you are set 1. You all are correct the most obvious play is the ruff heart. If you however follow what Cyberyeti said and ruff the heart not at trick 6 but at trick 4. The line of queen finesse does make. So, something to note, is it generally a rule to take your ruff as soon as you can rather than wait until the last trump? In this case it actually made a difference.

I'd really like to see if someone knows what that 2S limit bid is as this is exactly as the team played it given the 4S jump after the limit raise.

Your comments are all great. Thank you

[Stephen Tu]

clons, on 2020-September-12, 09:08, said:

So, something to note, is it generally a rule to take your ruff as soon as you can rather than wait until the last trump? In this case it actually made a difference.

It's very often right to take ruffs before drawing trumps, but it always depends on the whole hand, one has to analyze and make an overall plan for the entire hand.

Some questions to ask one's self are:
- do i have enough trumps that I can draw all trumps and still have enough left over to get all the ruffs I need?
- am I in danger of an over-ruff, or a different side suit being ruffed as I use it as transport for ruffs, will drawing trumps prevent this while still giving me enough ruffs?
- or does it not matter, and if they over-ruff it's going to be with a natural trump trick, one they'd score anyway, or in some other way give me another trick in exchange?
- does ruffing after drawing a trump or two break my transportation to draw the rest of the trumps, and is this a problem (like this particular hand)?
- if I draw trumps will I lose control of the hand (all my trumps gone) before I am able to knock out opponent's side suit high cards and set up my side suit(s)? (maybe have to play on side suit first)

[johnu]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-September-12, 07:13, said:

He ruffs his heart then exits a club, later taking the diamond finesse. I'd have ruffed the heart after one high trump (E surely has 3 for his raise) and then used dummy's 3rd trump to return to hand so I make the overtrick if E has ♦109.

It doesn't make any difference whether East has 3 hearts or not since dummy's trumps are high after ♠J falls on the 1st round of trump.

[nige1]

Clons "Sorry, new to the forum I was playing a hand which had a few interesting things happen and wanted to see if someone could share some insight into what the bidding was and the thinking process at the critical trick which was trick 6. Q1: Should West have doubled instead of bidding 1H overcall? with singleton points are 9HCP + 3 singleton. do you downgrade to 8HCP + 3 (ie not enough for X) and therefore bid your 5 card overcall?Interesting thing #1: Q2: What convention is the 2S limit raise? All the other auctions for this hand used the 2H cue bid limit raise. It appears as some sort of inverted major however I read those are typically used as an alternative to drury. Any thoughts or direction to where I can read more about this type of bidding response.Interesting thing #2: Q3: at trick 6, what does declarer lead and why? It would be best if someone who responded played it with closed hands and explained reasoning at trick 6. Double dummy makes it easy to figure out what do do next. What does south play next?
+++++++++++++++++++
Welcome Clons. IMO...
Q1. With the West hand, Charles Outred might overcall 2♥ but few other experts would.
Q2. Over West's 2♥, North has a difficult bid. 3♥ is just possible but 2♠ seems more sensible.
Q3. Agree with CyberYeti (as usual). At trick 2, South can ruff a heart safely, before drawing trumps. Then, if the ♦ finesse works and East has 3 or more ♦s (or doubleton ♦T9), trumps squeeze East for 11 tricks. As the play went, after ruffing a ♥ in dummy, declarer's best hope, by far, is to exit in ♣s.

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[Cyberyeti]

It's a much more fun defensive problem if W wins the club exit and has to exit with ♦K to defeat this

[pilowsky]

I'm not sure what the purpose of the 2♥ bid is. West knows that his partner is a passed hand with <11 HCP and South has opened. West has 9 HCP.
I would call 2♥ a lead-reminding bid. Which seems to be what happened, it reminded West to lead a heart.
To be useful, albeit risky I would bid 3♥. At least this might give opps pause for thought. I always do this against experts (I'm not an expert), because Mike Lawrence recommends it in his book "Judgement at Bridge 2". Mainly not vul. v vul. where it's safer.
Since it's clearly preemptive, and partner is a passed hand, and it's ♥ v ♠ I'm feeling fairly safe.
It's also much safer with robots - they don't criticise you afterwards.

Edit: And just to put my money where my mouth is I bid it vul. with this hand.

[akwoo]

Most likely the 2♠ as a limit raise (or maybe a constructive raise) in this situation is played with some form of transfers over interference, so that X would show the weaker spade raise. What they do with both minors I don't know.

[thepossum]

I don't know if anyone is interested but I put this into GiB (me as South). We ended up in 3 spades. West didnt bid and North bid a 2S simple raise etc East bid 3C, I bid 3S (because of Norths limits[7-10], and my loser count etc) then all-pass

Very basic sims based on Souths hand and the auctions.

GiB auction only gave average spade tricks 8.6 (SD approx 1) and chance of game approx 18%
The above auction gave average spade tricks 9.8 (SD approx 1) and chance of game approx 56%

EDIT SOrry, just realised I hadn't restricted Easts points enough. Here are corrected sims

GiB auction only gave average spade tricks 8.9 (SD approx 1) and chance of game approx 23%
The above auction gave average spade tricks 9.9 (SD approx 1) and chance of game approx 61%

[dsLawsd]

pilowsky, on 2020-September-12, 17:02, said:

I'm not sure what the purpose of the 2♥ bid is. West knows that his partner is a passed hand with <11 HCP and South has opened. West has 9 HCP.
I would call 2♥ a lead-reminding bid. Which seems to be what happened, it reminded West to lead a heart.
To be useful, albeit risky I would bid 3♥. At least this might give opps pause for thought. I always do this against experts (I'm not an expert), because Mike Lawrence recommends it in his book "Judgement at Bridge 2". Mainly not vul. v vul. where it's safer.
Since it's clearly preemptive, and partner is a passed hand, and it's ♥ v ♠ I'm feeling fairly safe.
It's also much safer with robots - they don't criticise you afterwards.

Edit: And just to put my money where my mouth is I bid it vul. with this hand.

Great analysis! I just hope that West did not "know" partner had good heart support. Perhaps they were trying to steer N_S into a poor contract? It certainly makes the declarer wonder...

[AL78]

pilowsky, on 2020-September-12, 17:02, said:

I'm not sure what the purpose of the 2♥ bid is. West knows that his partner is a passed hand with <11 HCP and South has opened. West has 9 HCP.
I would call 2♥ a lead-reminding bid. Which seems to be what happened, it reminded West to lead a heart.
To be useful, albeit risky I would bid 3♥. At least this might give opps pause for thought. I always do this against experts (I'm not an expert), because Mike Lawrence recommends it in his book "Judgement at Bridge 2". Mainly not vul. v vul. where it's safer.
Since it's clearly preemptive, and partner is a passed hand, and it's ♥ v ♠ I'm feeling fairly safe.
It's also much safer with robots - they don't criticise you afterwards.

Edit: And just to put my money where my mouth is I bid it vul. with this hand.

3♥ on KQxxx? Ugh, what is the world coming too? That deserves to go for a four figure minus score. It works on this hand because a fantastic dummy full of tricks comes down, but that doesn't make it a sound action. I'd rather play boring sound bridge and pass, it does wonders for partnership harmony.

[pilowsky]

AL78, on 2020-September-13, 03:23, said:

3♥ on KQxxx? Ugh, what is the world coming too? That deserves to go for a four figure minus score. It works on this hand because a fantastic dummy full of tricks comes down, but that doesn't make it a sound action. I'd rather play boring sound bridge and pass, it does wonders for partnership harmony.

The world has gone to the dogs - that's for sure. The robots never complain about my bidding or play. Mind you I've typed a few choice words into the chat - but they never reply.

[clons]

mikeh, on 2020-September-12, 08:05, said:

I think that the great majority of experts would take no bid with the west hand. No aces. A short, weak suit in hearts. The likely worthless (more so offensively than defensively) spade Jack. Vulnerable v not vulnerable. I wouldn’t bid even white v red, but I’m a fairly conservative bidder.

As for 2S being limit, that strikes me as extremely unusual. The north hand is borderline for a limit raise so maybe the OP misunderstood but, otoh , the south hand Has no business bidding game unless partner has shown a limit raise.

The play was poor. As Cyber noted, the correct line is to cash only one trump before ruffing the heart, but the error was extremely unlikely to cost, and at most would cost an improbable overtrick. As for the thinking at trick 6, what else but exit a club is even possible? Play to drop the singleton diamond King? Makes zero sense.

Hi All,

Thank you for your analysis, this has been a great teaching for me. Not overcalling with the West hand is interesting insight. First thought I saw it as maybe general interference not likely to be doubled, worst case partner knows the strong suit for lead direction. Maybe partner has 4 hearts and 10HCP and we steal a bid for a top board? Anyone recommend further reading on why this is a poor choice to overcall?

[Huibertus]

No, no double instead of 1♥. First, the hand is too weak, you add the compensation for the singleton only after you have a known fit. Second you want to encourage a ♥ lead or switch from partner, third you want to inform partner you have 5 ♥ and there is no way you are bidding ♥ second turn if partner bids a minor. This had in principal can bid once, so ♥ it is. If 2♠ is passed around to you then partner has some implied strengt and then you might decide to balance with a take out double to suggest he can bid ♦/♣, but given the vulnarability I personally would not risk it on this hand. For the same reason I migh consider a pass on this hand instead of 2♥, i'd always overcall 1♥ but 2 is close here.

2 ♠ limit? No clue, I guess the always bid 3 ♠ on weaker hand even on 3 cards support.

[Cyberyeti]

clons, on 2020-September-13, 05:54, said:

Hi All,

Thank you for your analysis, this has been a great teaching for me. Not overcalling with the West hand is interesting insight. First thought I saw it as maybe general interference not likely to be doubled, worst case partner knows the strong suit for lead direction. Maybe partner has 4 hearts and 10HCP and we steal a bid for a top board? Anyone recommend further reading on why this is a poor choice to overcall?

Overcalling at the 2 level requires more than the 1 level, it works here because E has a hand I'd have opened, and if I was E, I'd have bid 4♣ (showing a club suit and a heart fit) rather than 3♥ expecting more opposite. At IMPs you're offering up 800 against a game worth 400, and at MPs you're offering up 200 against a partscore. You also really don't want to be playing in 2♥-2 opposite a singleton and 4 diamonds, and if partner's not raising he's probably not bidding.

[Huibertus]

pilowsky, on 2020-September-12, 17:02, said:

I'm not sure what the purpose of the 2♥ bid is. West knows that his partner is a passed hand with <11 HCP and South has opened. West has 9 HCP.
I would call 2♥ a lead-reminding bid. Which seems to be what happened, it reminded West to lead a heart.
To be useful, albeit risky I would bid 3♥. At least this might give opps pause for thought. I always do this against experts (I'm not an expert), because Mike Lawrence recommends it in his book "Judgement at Bridge 2". Mainly not vul. v vul. where it's safer.
Since it's clearly preemptive, and partner is a passed hand, and it's ♥ v ♠ I'm feeling fairly safe.
It's also much safer with robots - they don't criticise you afterwards.

Edit: And just to put my money where my mouth is I bid it vul. with this hand.

Although I like the 3♥ on the hand you played, that hand doesn't compare at all to the hand in this thread, so I wouldn't claim it's putting the money where the mouth is. Apart from that, once you did bid 3 ♥, why not double 4 ♠ too? I used to have a partner who used to bid like that to great succes...

[aawk]

West overcall is not my style but ok. N/S will find a way to 4♠ and west leads the K of ♥.

Do E/W play distribution on a K lead ? If not E will hold the A of ♥ otherwise W would play a 3rd round of ♥, if so trump with the 9 and it is still made with the J of ♠ in west.

After the A of ♣ cross in ♠ trump a ♥ (with the 9) and with the K of ♦ on side 4♠ is made.