[mikeh]

Sorry, Ben, but I am not actually agreeing with your basic method: of using both 2♥ and 2♠ as immediate second negatives.

My point was to show that you cannot logically combine Acol 2-bids with the strong 2♣/immediate negative 2♥ approach.

Your use of 2♥ and 2♠ as negatives is in fact an example of what I was trying to criticize: the 'invention' of a specialized bid to 'fix' a perceived (and often real) problem without full consideration of the ramifications for other hands and other parts of the system.

Look at your kludge here: you give up the entire 2-level just so that you can, on the relatively rare hands with no A or K, tell partner (who may not be interested) and the opps (who may) whether you have 'no fit' for ♥! And what do you do when you have a fit for both but a double negative? Do you have to start destroying your 3-level space as well? Please do not tell me your 'fix' for this

I am merely trying to make a point about the problems with kludges.

And you have to open at the 1-level with strong 2-suiters! So either you risk missing game (because partner passes) or you have to play that 1-level bids range from good 11's to powerful 26+ two-suiters. And earlier you called 2/1 'virtually unplayable'

You have clearly spent a lot of time in developing your system, and I wish you well with it. I have no idea whether it is a truly integrated system, and am not intending to criticize it at all. But I can tell that it is either unplayable or so different in fundamental approach from 'standard' that transferring your pet sequences into standard is not going to work... at least not over 2♣. I suspect the latter.

[inquiry]

mikeh, on Sep 1 2005, 11:39 PM, said:

Sorry, Ben, but I am not actually agreeing with your basic method: of using both 2♥ and 2♠ as immediate second negatives.

I am merely trying to make a point about the problems with kludges.

And you have to open at the 1-level with strong 2-suiters!

Yes, i knew you were "disagreeing" with me. But, your example actually is not a hand that would occur if I was bidding, that was my point, and why it wouldn't. Despite your using that hand to say "Ben method would fail on this one".

And I will not explain anymore of my kludges, just rest assured, I MOST CLEARLY DO NOT OPEN STRONG TWO SUITERS AT THE ONE LEVEL depite your now adding that anchor to my bidding. (As all the people tired of hearing my "kludge" for that will attest too)

[Fluffy]

mikeh, on Sep 2 2005, 12:15 AM, said:

2N shows upgraded 17 count to average 19. I like my partners to respond to my 1-level openings on any decent 5 count and on some good 4 counts.

AHA!!! That's the point of the question

Because you open 1NT with 5c major you feel openeing 1NT with 17 is too strong, then you have to invent something weird liek a 2NT rebid with 17, as the result you end up playin non GF 2NT rebids . Now stratto open 1♠ with 15-17 balanced and delight from the benefits of a GF 2NT rebid

[Double !]

IF I were to open this hand 1 heart and receive a 1S response from P, I confess that I would rebid 3C (distortion that it might seem to be), because 1) partner does not have 5-8/9 with 3-card heart support: that hand shoud simply respond 2H), 2) I want to hear partner's rebid (if he rebids 3D FSF, I can rebid 3S/ if he rebids 3NT, well that looks good to me), and 3) I can then correct P's 3rd bid be it 3NT or 4C (or a response of 4C to 3C) to 4H and be showing this type of hand. I might select a different initial rebid without the 3rd spade. (I still prefer a 2C opening with this hand, especially if I can get out at 3H: if I can't make 3H, what can the opps make?)

[the hog]

Double !, on Sep 3 2005, 04:11 AM, said:

IF I were to open this hand 1 heart and receive a 1S response from P, I confess that I would rebid 3C (distortion that it might seem to be), because 1) partner does not have 5-8/9 with 3-card heart support: that hand shoud simply respond 2H), 2) I want to hear partner's rebid (if he rebids 3D FSF, I can rebid 3S/ if he rebids 3NT, well that looks good to me), and 3) I can then correct P's 3rd bid be it 3NT or 4C (or a response of 4C to 3C) to 4H and be showing this type of hand.  I might select a different initial rebid without the 3rd spade.  (I still prefer a 2C opening with this hand, especially if I can get out at 3H: if I can't make 3H, what can the opps make?)

And what pray tell do you bid over 5C? Probably best might be to claim you just got an urgent phone call and leave the room. What about a 4D splinter over your 3C bid; what do you do now?

Also is not 4H over 4C a cue bid agreeing C?
Jumping on a 3 card suit is bad enough, jumping on a 2 card suit is suicide.

[Double !]

The_Hog, on Sep 2 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

Double !, on Sep 3 2005, 04:11 AM, said:

IF I were to open this hand 1 heart and receive a 1S response from P, I confess that I would rebid 3C (distortion that it might seem to be), because 1) partner does not have 5-8/9 with 3-card heart support: that hand shoud simply respond 2H), 2) I want to hear partner's rebid (if he rebids 3D FSF, I can rebid 3S/ if he rebids 3NT, well that looks good to me), and 3) I can then correct P's 3rd bid be it 3NT or 4C (or a response of 4C to 3C) to 4H and be showing this type of hand.  I might select a different initial rebid without the 3rd spade.  (I still prefer a 2C opening with this hand, especially if I can get out at 3H: if I can't make 3H, what can the opps make?)

And what pray tell do you bid over 5C? Probably best might be to claim you just got an urgent phone call and leave the room. What about a 4D splinter over your 3C bid; what do you do now?

Also is not 4H over 4C a cue bid agreeing C?
Jumping on a 3 card suit is bad enough, jumping on a 2 card suit is suicide.

Please reread my post. I prefaced my response with the words "IF I were to open this hand 1 heart", and I concluded by saying that I preferred to open the hand 2 clubs, especially if able to stop at 3M (I don't play 2C is a GF, just forcing to 2NT or 3M or 4m) (I also happen to like Benjy 2-bids, but that is another matter.) So, please, before attacking to reinforce your point, please read more carefully all that was said. Thank you.

DHL

[the hog]

I did read your post and did see that you would have opened 2C, (a decision with which I disagree incidentally). However playing mainstream bridge with a mainstream and having opened 1H, you said, and I quote:

"IF I were to open this hand 1 heart and receive a 1S response from P, I confess that I would rebid 3C (distortion that it might seem to be)"

Well then, what would you do over 5C etc? You still have not answered that.

Sure, I would open it with a big C, but the original poster did not ask you to bid the hand using your preferred methods, but gave you a set of conditions.