[inquiry]

Echognome, on Sep 7 2005, 09:34 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with opening Roland's hand with 1NT. As I mentioned I would open it 1NT in my system if it were within range. However, you have to choose some opening with:

K
AJx
Kxxx
Qxxxx

That is the same hand without the ♥K. Then are you opening 1♣ and rebidding 2♣ over 1♠? Starting with a pass?

I would open 1♣ and rebid 1NT, what's the problem?

[FrancesHinden]

Obviously if you are playing some sort of artificial method you may have a solution. My team-mates play transfer responses to 1C, including the approach that completing the transfer shows 4 cards in a missed out suit, so

1C - 1D (hearts)
1H

shows 4 diamonds (and by inference 5 clubs)

and

1C - 1H (spades)
1S

shows 4 diamonds or 4 hearts (and by inference 5 clubs).

However, we're talking about playing some sort of standard methods. In particular we're talking about the problem on (13)45 hands (and 0445s, but I bet you don't open them 1NT).

Deciding that 1NT is the least lie is one thing, and I don't agree, but I understand and sympathise. Saying "it's the only sensible option" is absurdly dogmatic, and seems to ignore the possible downsides. And there are significant downsides with off-shape 1NT openings, particularly so in competitive auctions. Oddly enough, opening 1C on these hands has most of its problems in non-competitive auctions. Hmm, which are more common?

[Walddk]

FrancesHinden, on Sep 7 2005, 03:46 PM, said:

Oddly enough, opening 1C on these hands has most of its problems in non-competitive auctions. Hmm, which are more common?

Non-competitive auctions when you hold a 16 count obviously! So without intent you just made a perfect point: opening 1♣ with that hand is likely to get you into trouble.

Roland

[mikeh]

hrothgar, on Sep 7 2005, 07:45 AM, said:

If I think that the hand is best suited for suit play, I will lie about the relative length of my suits:  For example, holding a 3=1=4=5 hand, I will open 1♦ and rebid 2♣

I find this odd

Let me see: if I think that our partnership's goals probably lie in a suit contract, I will intentionally mislead partner about my distribution.

I would have thought that the best way to reach the correct suit contract is to involve partner in an accurate exchange of information.

If we have a minor game or slam, we can usually find our ♦ fit after opening 1♣, and we will do so in a manner in which partner (whose opinion counts) will know that we have longer ♣ than ♦. However, should we open 1♦, we will never be able to clarify the respective suit lengths. Even when partner knows we like to distort our shape, he has to cater to the posibility that we were dealt 5=4 or 5=5 rather than 4=5.

[whereagles]

hrothgar, what's wrong with opening a 4D-5C with 1C and rebidding 2C if the hand isn't strong enough to reverse?

[whereagles]

If the stakes were high, I would open 1♣.

If they were low I would have hogged the hand. Bob looks funny when he's dummy... LOL.

[hrothgar]

mikeh, on Sep 7 2005, 06:18 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Sep 7 2005, 07:45 AM, said:

If I think that the hand is best suited for suit play, I will lie about the relative length of my suits:  For example, holding a 3=1=4=5 hand, I will open 1♦ and rebid 2♣

I find this odd

Let me see: if I think that our partnership's goals probably lie in a suit contract, I will intentionally mislead partner about my distribution.

I would have thought that the best way to reach the correct suit contract is to involve partner in an accurate exchange of information.

I "normally" play majors-first opening styles in which an auction like
1M -1N - 2m could show either a four card major and a longer minor or a 5 card major and a four card minor. Furthermore, playing modern MOSCITO, the auction
1S - 1N - 2C could be based on either (5+ Diamonds and 4 Clubs) or (5+ CLubs and 4 Diamonds). Nothing in life is perfect. I'd love to be able to have perfect auctions that accurately define strength both strength and relative length between suits on the first rebid. Sadly, it ain't gonna happen.

Playing standard, I'm willing to accept some imprecision in auctions like 1♦ - 1M - 2♣ in order to have much more precision in auctions that I care more about. Specifically, I like to be well positioned in "bread and butter" auctions like

1♣ - 1M - 2M
1♣ - 1M - 1N

[Gerben42]

Quote

Because it makes it so much easier for my partner after just one bid by opener. Don't we all want to open 1NT as often as possible? That is exactly why I think that 1NT is the only sensible option with that hand.

Ah you are just strengthening my argument here. You want to open 1NT as often as possible due to its descriptive nature. However if you open 1NT more often than possible you lose this advantage.

Example:
1NT (2♠) X penalty (or p p x p p playing negative double). Partner won't be happy when he suddenly finds out declarer has your 2nd "promised" trump.

Quote

what's wrong with opening a 4D-5C with 1C and rebidding 2C if the hand isn't strong enough to reverse?

One big minus is playing the wrong 2m-contract. And esthetics.

[hrothgar]

whereagles, on Sep 7 2005, 06:45 PM, said:

hrothgar, what's wrong with opening a 4D-5C with 1C and rebidding 2C if the hand isn't strong enough to reverse?

Playign "standard" the 2♣ rebid is natural and nonforcing...
Call me crazy, but I prefer that it also shows a hand that would be happy to declare a club contract.

Asusme that the auction started 1♣ - 1♥
I'd hate to play a system that forced a 2♣ rebid holding a hand like

♠ AK3
♥ 6
♦ KQT9
♣ 65432

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Sep 7 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

Asusme that the auction started 1♣ - 1♥
I'd hate to play a system that forced a 2♣ rebid holding a hand like

♠ AK3
♥ 6
♦ KQT9
♣ 65432

I would hate it too, and it won't happen. But I will not open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ over 1♥. I open 1♣, and my rebid will be 1♠.

Roland

[han]

hrothgar, on Sep 7 2005, 11:13 AM, said:

whereagles, on Sep 7 2005, 06:45 PM, said:

hrothgar, what's wrong with opening a 4D-5C with 1C and rebidding 2C if the hand isn't strong enough to reverse?

Playign "standard" the 2♣ rebid is natural and nonforcing...
Call me crazy, but I prefer that it also shows a hand that would be happy to declare a club contract.

Asusme that the auction started 1♣ - 1♥
I'd hate to play a system that forced a 2♣ rebid holding a hand like

♠ AK3
♥ 6
♦ KQT9
♣ 65432

Agree with hrothgar, opening 1C on this hand seems terrible. But then, this hand is not 4-5 in the minors by my count.

[whereagles]

I don't like the 1D-1x-2C rebid to be either 45m or 54m. I prefer rebidding 2C with 45. Even if it's a xxxxx suit.

Rebidding 2C sees you in a 5-1 fit very rarely. Only if resp has 5521 or 5431 are you in trouble. And even then resp can try rebidding his 5-major.

Rebidding 2D sees you in a 4-2 fit when a 5-3 fit is available every time responder prefers the wrong minor.

Unless you bid 5D-4C hands as 1D-1x-2D, I think rebidding 2D is bound to get you into the wrong partscore more often than rebidding 2C.

[FrancesHinden]

Quote

I think you underestimate the chances of getting to a 5-1 fit.

Well, I've been opening 1C and rebidding 2C on the relevant hand type for nearly 15 years, and I very very seldom play in a 5-1 fit. For it to happen at all, partner has to have a suitable hand to respond at the 1-level in your singleton and pass your rebid, and the opponents have to pass throughout. This doesn't happen very often.

You give a long list of supposed disadvantages of this style, but they are only disadvantages if responder is playing a different method. Basically, if you play that you don't open 1C and rebid 2C but your partner does, you will end in the wrong contract. Similarly, if you play that you open 1D or rebid 1NT but your partner doesn't, you will end in the wrong contract. Saying that partner will misevaluate just means that partner is playing a different approach.

I believe very strongly that my way is right. But I have a feeling that this could be because I have a lot of experience playing this way, and I understand all the implications for the rest of the auction. The approach you choose affects all your NT bidding and all your auctions after opening 1-minor; you can't pretend it's just a minor adjustment to the methods.

I am well aware that Precision players cope quite happily with 1D- 1M-2C showing the minors either way round. But they have (surely they must have?) methods to cope with this, and disambiguate later. For example, I play 1D - 1H - 2H - 2S as an artificial relay. As opener I bid 3C to show a 1354 or possibly 2344 and 3D to show a 1363 or possibly 2353. If my 1D opener and 2H raise could be anything from 2344 to 1345 via 2362, then I'm going to need to change my methods (e.g. only raise 1M to 2M with a singleton, to start with).

Similarly, if there are any really expert partnerships around playing that a 1NT opening can be a (31)45 I bet they have seriously detailed agreements about continuations in and out of competition that look totally different to mine, which assume one particular subset of hand types in the 1NT opener and 1NT rebidder.

p.s. it also has quite an impact on defence, when you are working out your partner's distribution from limited auction information.

[FrancesHinden]

Jlall, on Sep 7 2005, 11:30 AM, said:

Rebidding 5 card minors with any hand imo is awful. I have never had a hand where I have rebid a 5 card minor (although it is theoretically possible). It leads to numerous problems such as:

Now let's try rebidding 1NT instead:

Quote

playing 5-1 or 5-0 fits. This is not usually desirable.

True. But neither is playing 1NT when we have an 8- or 9- card minor suit fit available and no spade stop. Surely you pass 1NT holding a 4243 after 1C - 1S - 1NT?

And now suppose you open 1NT on your 1345 and the next hand overcalls 2S or 3S. How can partner possibly act sensibly when you can have anything from 1 to 5 cards in either major?

Quote

Causing partner to misevaluate. He will expect a 6 card suit so a holding like Kx may excite him a LOT (6 tricks he's thinking) only for him to be disappointed.

Only if you haven't discussed matters. He won't expect a 6-card suit if he knows you rebid 2C on an unbalanced hand with five of them, will he?

Quote

Missing 4-4 heart fits if your shape is something like 1435 and partner is something like 5422 (less than invite) he will gladly pass you in 2C.

True. This is a disadvantage.

Quote

Causing partner to judge wrongly in a competitive auction since he will expect a 6 card suit.

See my comment above.

There's also the other competitive auction when he has no idea what size club fit we have when you rebid 1NT, because you can have anything from 3 to 6 clubs. How does that help him when they protect 1NT?

Quote

I don't see rebidding a 5 card suit as a lesser evil. Oh and to preempt the silly hand construction, yes with K xxx xxxx AKQJT I would open 1C and rebid 2C.

and indeed with K KQx Axxx Jxxxx I would open 1C and rebid 1NT. Let's avoid the silly hand construction.

[FrancesHinden]

Jlall, on Sep 7 2005, 12:17 PM, said:

So your partner does not pass with 5341 over 2C? what does he do playing your style? Your partner does not invite game after a 2C rebid with Axxx xxx Kxxx Kx? I guess you miss a lot of games.

Yes, of course partner passes with a 5341 over 2C. I know that's a disadvantage. I play in 2C in a 5-1 fit while you play in 1NT with a 5341 opposite a 1345. (2C is sometimes the better spot on this layout, by the way.)

All this stuff about "evaluation" is about being used to playing particular methos.

Telling me "I guess you miss a lot of games" is just being rude, as we've never played each other and you have no idea what my game-bidding-success-rate after a 1m opener is.