[awm]

Assuming you and partner are on the same page, and play reasonable methods, none of this matters on gamegoing hands. There's plenty of space! The issues will arise when partner is weak or invitational. My preferred solution:

(1) Bid 1NT frequently on singleton. This is particularly nice on shapes like 1444, 1435, 1453. It keeps hearts in the picture, which are a likely partial and also the most likely way to reach a game on minimum values. If I were to open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ on the first hand, then it will be hard to reach hearts short of game (presumably partner cannot bid 2♥ as that would be 4th suit GF). If I open 1♣ and rebid 2♣ on the second hand, it depends somewhat on our agreements about 2♥ (if it's natural and nonforcing, that's fine, but will partner necessarily bid it on 5422 weak). If I bid 1♦ and 2♦ on the last hand, it's very useful to have 2♥ (the minimum call) as an artificial force and I wouldn't want to make it natural and nonforcing (forcing game would then require a 3♣ call, several steps higher).

(2) Raise partner frequently with 3-card support. This means that a 1NT rebid almost always has one or two cards in partner's suit -- much easier for partner to make the right choices than if it included between one and three cards. The only likely exception is 4333 shape with 3-card support, which often (but not always!) rebids 1NT. Partner has no need to rebid mediocre 5-card majors since no 5-3 fit will be found (rebidding the major with something like KQJTx and no other high cards is still right of course).

Of course, you obviously still need partner to be on the same page. Partner can't blast 4♠ after 1m-1♠-1NT with a bad six-bagger. And you need various checkbacks to enable you to reach 3NT when it's right after 1m-1♠-2♠ (you can deal without these most of the time if you almost never raise on three).

[cherdano]

Gerben42, on Sep 7 2005, 06:09 PM, said:

Quote

Because it makes it so much easier for my partner after just one bid by opener. Don't we all want to open 1NT as often as possible? That is exactly why I think that 1NT is the only sensible option with that hand.

Ah you are just strengthening my argument here. You want to open 1NT as often as possible due to its descriptive nature. However if you open 1NT more often than possible you lose this advantage.

Example:
1NT (2♠) X penalty (or p p x p p playing negative double). Partner won't be happy when he suddenly finds out declarer has your 2nd "promised" trump.

I don't feel this is much of a problem.
1. xx of trumps is not much better than K
2. Since I have devalued my singleton K when opening 1NT, and it is now most likely full value, I have more than I promised and we should have no trouble beating this. (Well, of course there is still this problem of actually getting our tricks on defense...)

About 1NT becoming less descriptive: In my view, responder will still judge well if he just assumes that this hand is not possible, and so it becomes less descriptive only in theory. (Of course, if we play a relay method over 1NT where responder can find out about the exact shape, opening 1NT becomes less attractive, as I would have to lie later on.)

About misdescribing your hand by opening 1NT: This really feels wrong to me. A singleton K is often useless in a suit contract but helpful in notrump.

Btw, I think the issue about rebidding 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit is IMO much more dependant on the rest of your style. I only like it if we usually raise partner's major with 3 cards (in which case he will not usually rebid a 5-card suit after hearing my 1NT rebid).

Arend

[mikeh]

It was easy to predict that this thread would generate a lot of heat

The truth is that (as far as I know) there is no generally acceptable way of determining, in an objective, manner which approach is better. Indeed, which approach is better depends on a number of other factors: your treatment has to mesh with the rest of your bidding philosophy.

I am of the 1♣ opening school. Have I never opened 1♦ with 4=5? No: give me AKJx Jxxxx and a hand unsuited for a 1N rebid and I will open 1♦.

Do I never open 1N with a stiff? No. Give me Roland's hand and I would probably choose 1N as the least of several evils.

Have I ever played in an awful 5-1 ♣ fit after opening an rebidding a mediocre 5 card suit? Yes: and I did not enjoy it. But I have declared many contracts I wish I could have avoided. All methods involve compromise and all methods expose the user to the chance of reaching a hideous spot. Anyone who claims otherwise is fooling themselves. The longer you play, the more unfortunate spots you will reach.

As an example, I frequently open chunky 5 card major weak twos at favourable. As a result I have sometimes 'enjoyed' a 5-0 fit: and learned that I preempted my opps out of their 4-4 game contract. Oooops.

But that has not stopped me and will not stop me from making these bids because, on balance, I view such bids as winners.

In a similar vein, I will sometimes reach Justin's dreaded 5-1 or 5-0 ♣ partial, because that price is worth, to me, the benefits I perceive as flowing from my treatment on other hands.

Justin and others disagree, based on their subjective experience and the biases that we all bring to our perceptions of methods. All this makes for interesting and sometimes amusing discussion, but such discussion cannot, by the nature of the topic, provide a definitive answer to 'which is best'.

I 'know' that for me, my methods work well, and I am comfortable with them. That belief and level of comfort are worth a great deal, so absent a strong motivation, I doubt that I will change them.

If I do, it will be in the direction of rebiidng 1N with 5431 hands, after opening 1♣. For now, the perceived level of cost to my 1N rebid sequences outweighs the gain: for instance I routinely pull 1N to a 5 card major after 1♣ 1♠ 1N, if my hand lacks entries to the ♠ suit (and has other indicators of suit play being superior). I would have to stop that if partner could hold a stiff.

Wild horses could not persuade me to open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ with any but the most obvious hands, because my partnership philosophy is built on accurate distributional bidding.

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Sep 7 2005, 01:51 PM, said:

Btw, I think the issue about rebidding 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit is IMO much more dependant on the rest of your style. I only like it if we usually raise partner's major with 3 cards (in which case he will not usually rebid a 5-card suit after hearing my 1NT rebid).

Doesn't just everyone raise with three card support? I prefer the raise (well not with 4333 and weak, but I tend not to open 4333 and weak... well... i do, but not as frequent as others, almost never with 11's, about half the 12's and all the 13+).

Had one last night with Hannie.... were we "missed" a 4-4 spade fit to play in a 4-3 heart fit. Of course, good things happened or I would not be mentioning it.. :-)

Jxxx
AQJx
AKx
T9


KT9x
Kxx
Jx
KQJx

S  N
1C 1H
2H 2N
3N 4H
Pass

Ok, a couple of issues. I was asked the following questions...

1) Why didn't I pass 3NT. The answer is two fold. If partner is forgetful, 3NT would include a doubleton spade or doubleton diamond. I don't want to be in 3NT opposite xx of spades. Second, the way I play over 2NT, opener rebids his suit with any random 11-13 balanced with three card support. Since I don't open most 11's, this comes down to 12-13. Presumably as responder I know what to do. If opener has 1345 or 4315 he will bid 3NT (short diamond) or 3♠ (short spade). The idea behind this is to find the clever moysein when it exist, to avoid bad 3NT's with stiff opposite weakness, So in theory, but not in practice (this is hte first time this auction has come up with hannie) he should be 3-3-1-6 or 4-3-1-5.

2) Another question was why didn't I rebid 2♠ instead of 2NT? This would seem normal, but my spade suit was Jxxx and my heart suit was AQJx and partner had raised hearts. The second answer was if partner showed a singleton SPADE, I might actually have visions of more than game. I can make slam oppisite as little as x Kxx xxxx AKQxx. The only way to find out about the short spade is to bid 2NT. When partner bids 3♠, now I can bid 4♦ as slam try. With the shown hand partner would in theory take control.

3) Over 3♣ rebid (no short suit, three card support), I would press on to game. Both 3NT and 4♠ are locks to make. 4♥ could have been beaten on a ♠ ruff (there is a singleton ♠ lurking). It is doubtful we could have gotten into 4♠ after my decision to hunt for the singleton ♠. IF I had bid 2♠, the auction would have gone to 4♠ without any difficulty.

[han]

Another funny thing about this hand was that somewhere during the hand (only one round of trumps had been played) west cashed the ace of spades and east dropped his stiff queen. East later admitted that he thought partner could not have a stiff spade because (1) Ben would have bid spades with 4, and (2) partner would have lead a spade. At that point a ruff would only have saved them from an overtrick.

Next time I will bid 3C Ben, and we'd get to the superior 3NT contract.

[HeartA]

Gerben42, on Sep 7 2005, 06:48 AM, said:

I won't criticize anyone opening 1NT on that hand TOO much as it is not ridiculous, however it is not in my book. You call opening 1♦ then bidding 2♣ a genuine misdescription. I'm sure Roland is more than capable of pointing out what terrible things can happen with my misdescription.

But guess what: Opening 1NT is also a genuine misdescription. On this hand you are condemned to misdescribe your hand in some way. You choose 1NT, I don't.

There is one independent advantage to opening 1♦ though. Since you haven't misdescribed on your FIRST bid, something good might happen before you have to misdescribe on your second bid. If you open 1NT you have misdescribed already.

I second. There is no perfect way to open such a hand, and I would open 1♦ as well.

How to open a 4♦-5♣hand, it depends on many thing: the qualities of the suits, the strength of the hand, the distribution of majors, and how the points are distributed. If ♣s are very good, I would open 1♣ and prepare to rebid 2♣ unless pd responds 1♦ (or 2♣ etc.). And to raise pd's major with good 3 support, or rebid 1NT (if strength is within the range, 15 is on border for 15-17 NT opening).

There are some other types of hands you just can't open and rebid properly without "distort" them.

[jdeegan]

Another issue I have not seen discussed in this forum is auctions after partner makes a negative double. Since, by definition, you don't have the other major (except for the rather rare 0-4-4-5 or 4-0-4-5 hands), opening the hand 1♦ leaves you better placed.

For most players, the negative double shows the other major (4 cards) and either the other minor or tolerance for opener's minor. If you open 1♣ and it goes: 1♠ - dbl - pass - ???, you may be in an awkward position with no spade stopper. Bidding the four card diamond suit is liable to force partner to correct to THREE clubs, and this may be too high. Starting with one diamond leaves you able to stop at either 2♦ or 2♣ and know what you are doing.

The same arguement holds for opening 1♦ with 4-4 in the minors.

Examples showing the 1♣ - 1♥ - dbl - pass - ??? auction are similar.

[the hog]

Walddk, on Sep 8 2005, 02:21 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Sep 7 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

Asusme that the auction started 1♣ - 1♥
I'd hate to play a system that forced a 2♣ rebid holding a hand like

♠ AK3
♥ 6
♦ KQT9
♣ 65432

I would hate it too, and it won't happen. But I will not open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ over 1♥. I open 1♣, and my rebid will be 1♠.

Roland

Doesnt this lead to many 3-3 fits? The 1S rebid is a far greater distortion than opening 1D and rebidding 2C.

I don't mind opening 1NT with a stiff honour if in the NT range, else 1D followed by 2C seems clear if not strong enough to reverse; certainly this is far better than opening 1C and rebidding 2C on a moth eaten suit as some suggest. After all PC has been playing this style for yonks without any ill effects.

[Gerben42]

I dealt sample hands using Roland's opening hand. These were the first 10 hands (no selection!) that came up. We have part scores, games and a slam. Some of the discussed situations came up. Have a look how your favorite opening bid works out!

          S: QJ
          H: Q9653
          D: AQ4
          C: KT6
 S: T8742          S: A9653
 H: T74            H: 82
 D: JT2            D: 986
 C: A8             C: J93
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

          S: 9854
          H: Q4
          D: T9642
          C: K8
 S: 73             S: AQJT62
 H: T632           H: 9875
 D: AQJ8           D: ---
 C: A93            C: JT6
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

          S: Q84
          H: QT54
          D: Q4
          C: AKJ3
 S: AJ95           S: T7632
 H: 9862           H: 73
 D: AJT            D: 9862
 C: 96             C: T8
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

          S: 9642
          H: QT9542
          D: 8
          C: K6
 S: AJT3           S: Q875
 H: 8763           H: ---
 D: QJ             D: AT9642
 C: 983            C: AJT
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

          S: QJ863
          H: Q72
          D: QT9
          C: K3
 S: 97542          S: AT
 H: 83             H: T9654
 D: 64             D: AJ82
 C: T986           C: AJ
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

          S: AJ72
          H: T764
          D: AQ9
          C: 86
 S: Q864           S: T953
 H: Q9             H: 8532
 D: JT86           D: 42
 C: K93            C: AJT
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

          S: AJ874
          H: Q6
          D: A9
          C: T983
 S: Q93            S: T652
 H: T932           H: 8754
 D: QJT6           D: 842
 C: A6             C: KJ
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

          S: AT94
          H: QT43
          D: JT8
          C: AJ
 S: J62            S: Q8753
 H: 862            H: 975
 D: Q62            D: A94
 C: KT96           C: 83
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

          S: AT32
          H: 4
          D: AJT84
          C: AJ9
 S: J84            S: Q9765
 H: Q762           H: T9853
 D: Q2             D: 96
 C: KT83           C: 6
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

          S: T74
          H: T7
          D: AQT964
          C: J6
 S: QJ86532        S: A9
 H: 654            H: Q9832
 D: J              D: 82
 C: K8             C: AT93
          S: K
          H: AKJ
          D: K753
          C: Q7542

[flytoox]

Jlall, on Sep 7 2005, 04:30 PM, said:

Rebidding 5 card minors with any hand imo is awful. I have never had a hand where I have rebid a 5 card minor (although it is theoretically possible). It leads to numerous problems such as:

playing 5-1 or 5-0 fits. This is not usually desirable.
Causing partner to misevaluate. He will expect a 6 card suit so a holding like Kx may excite him a LOT (6 tricks he's thinking) only for him to be disappointed.
Missing 4-4 heart fits if your shape is something like 1435 and partner is something like 5422 (less than invite) he will gladly pass you in 2C.
Causing partner to judge wrongly in a competitive auction since he will expect a 6 card suit.

I don't see rebidding a 5 card suit as a lesser evil. Oh and to preempt the silly hand construction, yes with K xxx xxxx AKQJT I would open 1C and rebid 2C.

I am with Justion on this issue. I never rebid five card suit. Besides the possibility of playing awful 5-1 fit, there is another possibility, i.e., pd often has to raise with doubleton and some invitatioal strength. In this case, you will play 3m with 5-2 fit.

[ABadPlayer]

I never rebid a 5 card ♦ suit, but I will on occasion rebid a 5 card ♣ suit when it seems the lesser of evils.

I have NO problems opening NT with a stiff honor when the hand is otherwise well suited to playing in NT.

I actually have a larger aversion to rebidding NT with a singleton in my partners suit. On occasion I have done so and it's rarely lead to good results for me.

I really don't have any hard rules about what to open or rebid. I tend to just look at my hand and make a judgement call. If my ♣ are strong I'll open 1♣, planning to rebid 2♣. I generally don't like supporting a Major with only 3, but if the suit is AKx or KQT etc, then I'll go ahead and show support.

If my ♣ are of relatively poor quality then I'm more inclined to open 1♦ and take my chances with a 2♣ rebid.

[Walddk]

ABadPlayer, on Sep 8 2005, 07:02 AM, said:

I generally don't like supporting a Major with only 3, but if the suit is AKx or KQT etc, then I'll go ahead and show support.

I am much more inclined to supporting a major with three cards if I have weaker holdings than the ones you mention, particularly if I have a singleton. Ruffing losers with high trumps is usually not desirable.

2
J76
AK104
AJ863

1♣ - 1♥
2♥

This is a hand perfectly suited for a heart raise in my opinion.

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

Jlall, on Sep 7 2005, 12:25 PM, said:

As for opening 1N with a stiff, that is very rare (for me). I would only do it with pretty much the hand I gave earlier, so I don't see how that point is valid.

OK, in that case I haven't worked out what you open and rebid holding normal-looking 15-16 HCP hands after 1x - 1S holding

x
KQx
KJxx
AQxxx

Do you open 1D and rebid 2C?
Or do you play a wide-range 1NT rebid?

[ABadPlayer]

Walddk, on Sep 8 2005, 02:32 AM, said:

ABadPlayer, on Sep 8 2005, 07:02 AM, said:

I generally don't like supporting a Major with only 3, but if the suit is AKx or KQT etc, then I'll go ahead and show support.

I am much more inclined to supporting a major with three cards if I have weaker holdings than the ones you mention, particularly if I have a singleton. Ruffing losers with high trumps is usually not desirable.

2
J76
AK104
AJ863

1♣ - 1♥
2♥

This is a hand perfectly suited for a heart raise in my opinion.

Roland

That's a hand that I would probably open 1D and rebid 2C. And then if my partner corrects to 2D I might venture a 2H bid.

[Walddk]

FrancesHinden, on Sep 8 2005, 09:41 AM, said:

OK, in that case I haven't worked out what you open and rebid holding normal-looking 15-16 HCP hands after 1x - 1S holding

x
KQx
KJxx
AQxxx

I know it is a question for Justin, but let me add that I will not have a problem with rebidding 2♣ after 1♣-1♠ with the hand you give us here. I would feel much more uncomfortable holding

x
AQJ
AQJx
Jxxxx

Now I think 1♦-1♠; 2♣ is the least of evils. 1♣-1♠; 2♣ looks wrong with that anaemic suit, does it not?

Should partner respond 1♥, I will raise to 2♥. With 14 of my 15 hcp in the two suits, 2♥ is a good description.

Roland

[Walddk]

ABadPlayer, on Sep 8 2005, 10:29 AM, said:

Walddk, on Sep 8 2005, 02:32 AM, said:

ABadPlayer, on Sep 8 2005, 07:02 AM, said:

I generally don't like supporting a Major with only 3, but if the suit is AKx or KQT etc, then I'll go ahead and show support.

I am much more inclined to supporting a major with three cards if I have weaker holdings than the ones you mention, particularly if I have a singleton. Ruffing losers with high trumps is usually not desirable.

2
J76
AK104
AJ863

1♣ - 1♥
2♥

This is a hand perfectly suited for a heart raise in my opinion.

Roland

That's a hand that I would probably open 1D and rebid 2C. And then if my partner corrects to 2D I might venture a 2H bid.

In my methods you show a stronger hand on this auction:

1♦ - 1♥
2♣ - 2♦
2♥

Something like

x
AQx
KQxxx
AQxx

Too good to raise 1♥ to 2♥.

Roland

[ABadPlayer]

^So what happens when your partner passes 2C? I'd probably just plan on making a reverse with a hand that good.

[helene_t]

You can't reverse with 5d4c. You would have to rebid 3♣, then. That's GF and might take you too high if partner has only four hearts and a minimum.

I would prefer to rebid 2♣. Partner rarely passes that. But if you rebid 3♣ (or a forcing raise of hearts) I wouldn't say you're crazy.

[ABadPlayer]

helene_t, on Sep 8 2005, 04:01 AM, said:

You can't reverse with 5d4c.

My fault, I just looked at the hand quickly and thought it was still 5♣ & 4♦.

[Walddk]

ABadPlayer, on Sep 8 2005, 10:51 AM, said:

^So what happens when your partner passes 2C? I'd probably just plan on making a reverse with a hand that good.

If my partner passes 2♣, we are unlikely to have missed a game. Feel free to open the hand 1♣ and reverse into 2♦ after a 1MA response if you want (showing 5 clubs and 4 diamonds!). This would not be my approach when I have no problems with showing my suits in the right order.

1♦ - 1♥
2♣ = Roughly 12-18 hcp with 5+ diamonds and 4+ clubs.

Roland