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double or bid?

#1 User is offline   h2osmom 

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Posted 2008-March-06, 15:24



2D on your right, do you double or bid 2h?
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#2 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2008-March-06, 15:56

First, is this IMPS or MPs, and who is vulnerable, and what was 2♦?

Assuming that 2♦ is a weak 2 in diamonds I mostly prefer 2♥.
But there is some risk of missing a game ('...if we get by this round...'), so vulnerable at IMPs I would consider double instead.

2NT is also a possibility, I would not choose it because Kx is not a good stopper, and we are offshape and a touch over strength.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#3 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-06, 16:23

Double, passout is a much more real possibility after a 2 level overcall than a 1 level overcall.
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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-06, 16:57

This is a very good 17-count, the Kx is great behind the diamonds and our suits are wonderful. I'd also double.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-06, 17:08

han, on Mar 6 2008, 05:57 PM, said:

This is a very good 17-count

so good that it's actually 18!
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#6 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-March-06, 17:30

Double. Not only because of the strength but I think the auction will flow smoother this way.

If LHO raises and pard passes, I have a 3♥ call. If I overcall 2♥ 1st, its very difficult when 3♦ comes back to me.
"Phil" on BBO
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#7 User is offline   h2osmom 

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Posted 2008-March-06, 17:52

Thank you! So, I did double with this hand, and then lho bid 4d, and pd bid 4s, p p to me.
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#8 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-06, 17:55

h2osmom, on Mar 6 2008, 06:52 PM, said:

Thank you! So, I did double with this hand, and then lho bid 4d, and pd bid 4s, p p to me.

Gotta pass.
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#9 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-March-06, 17:56

X then pass. Feel sick about the second one, but I think it is clear.
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#10 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-06, 18:52

Jlall, on Mar 6 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

han, on Mar 6 2008, 05:57 PM, said:

This is a very good 17-count

so good that it's actually 18!

Now you know why some think I downgrade a lot.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#11 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2008-March-07, 01:49

I know that it is en vogue on BBF to play off shape doubles if there is a remote possibility that a bid in a suit will be passed around.

For my taste, doubling with this hand takes this idea too far, I would bid 2 Heart, knowing about the risk and the votes from the young expert.

If I had doubled, pass of 4 Spade is quite obvious. The insufficent trumps makes a slam try impossible. ;)
Kind Regards

Roland

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#12 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-07, 11:24

Codo, on Mar 7 2008, 02:49 AM, said:

I know that it is en vogue on BBF to play off shape doubles if there is a remote possibility that a bid in a suit will be passed around.

Errr, no, I think it is exactly the opposite.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#13 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-March-07, 11:26

At the 1-level I'd just make the overcall with this hand.

At the 2-level it's a little different. All passing over 2♥ is very possible. I'll double - reluctantly. If partner bids 4♠ I just have to pass.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#14 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-March-07, 12:01

I would overcall. These 1 vs 2 level arguments don't make much sense to me since a 2 level overcall shows a better hand to begin with. Also I will take up a lot of room if I double then bid hearts. But I still don't think double is bad.

Have to agree with han as for how I see the bbo forums trend on these problems.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#15 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2008-March-07, 12:41

han, on Mar 8 2008, 02:24 AM, said:

Codo, on Mar 7 2008, 02:49 AM, said:

I know that it is en vogue on BBF to play off shape doubles if there is a remote possibility that a bid in a suit will be passed around.

Errr, no, I think it is exactly the opposite.

What did I miss?

I thought all doubles did so, because they feared 2 HEart would be passed too often?
Kind Regards

Roland

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#16 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2008-March-07, 12:52

I would overcall 2♥ on these cards.

What happened at the table is not unexpected.
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#17 User is offline   Roupoil 

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Posted 2008-March-08, 02:37

That's funny, I had quite the same feeling as Codo about the doubles. As a matter of fact, most of the people here double more than I do (maybe one of the many reasons why I'm not an expert...). Well, I would bid 2♥ here.
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#18 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-08, 02:51

jdonn, on Mar 7 2008, 01:01 PM, said:

I would overcall. These 1 vs 2 level arguments don't make much sense to me since a 2 level overcall shows a better hand to begin with.

You will routinely bid with random 8/9 counts over a 1H overcall (1N or w/e). You would routinely pass these hands after a 2 level overcall of a preempt.

There are many hands you would raise over a 1H overcall that you would pass over a 2 level overcall (5-7 counts). This is because the raise to 3 commits to 9 tricks in a spot where the opps can never compete, so youre jeopardizing seriously your plus in 2H. If you have 6 points and a fit after a 1H overcall its normal to raise because you are never going to play 1H and you only commit to 8 tricks anyways and partner has room to game try and you can sign off (where over the raise to 3 he just has to guess whether to bidgameornot).

Having a lower minimum for a 1 level overcall than a 2 level overcall is not really relevant at all, and does not come close to the importance of being 1 level higher to begin with.
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#19 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-March-08, 02:59

Isn't being one level higher to double and bid your suit also much worse, especially on a minimum for that? Being a level higher just hurts all auctions. Besides I don't see why stopping in 2♥ instead of forcing to at least 3 couldn't be a good thing. But I could probably be convinced to double I have to admit. I'm sure I wouldn't have though.
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#20 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-08, 03:09

jdonn, on Mar 8 2008, 03:59 AM, said:

Isn't being one level higher to double and bid your suit also much worse, especially on a minimum for that?

Yes, but in terms of missing games it is much more likely to happen if you overcall 2H on an 18 count rather than 1H on an 18 count. Obviously getting too high by Xing is more likely after 2x than 1x.

In general I follow the "give partner 7 HCP..." rule and I think that I don't want to miss game opposite hands around that strength, and I think it will happen too often. Obviously stopping in 2H opposite hands partner can have could be a good thing, but I just think that all in all I'm willing to take my chances of getting too high or getting preempted out of ever showing my suit in order to not miss game opposite fairly common hand types.
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